149: Learn to Love Selling: The 4-Part Framework for Sales Success | Mark Cox

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if you want to Future prooof your career and you'relistening to this podcast today I think what you have to have that

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capability is reach out in the universe and create demandfor your product or service how do you assess to see if if

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they have the traits and skills or just even the makeup toto be a a leader one

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of the things would be most sales teams are stuck in a cycleof Doom chasing deals closing a few then

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scrambling to fill an empty pipeline all over again now ifthat sounds amiliar this episode is your road map out

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welcome to the learn itall podcast the show for today'sleaders who want to get ahead and stay ahead because we believe

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great leaders aren't born or made they are constantly in themaking I'm your host Damon lby two-time best-selling

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author and CEO of learn it a live learning platform that hashelped upskill over 2 million people over the

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past three decades Our Guest today is Mark Cox one of thetop thought leaders in B2B sales and the author of a great

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new book called learning to love sales Mark and I plan ondelivering a deep dive into his four-part sales Playbook

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you're going to learn why Discovery is where the sales wonor lost and the secret to find your company's real

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competitive differentiator are the best salese naturallygifted or can it be a

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learned skill it can be a learned skill so yeah that's theshort answer I'm a big fan of Carol D's book mindset which

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talks about a fixed mindset and growth mindset and when youget into the depth of some of her research it sort of

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proves that any of us can learn anything and when we'rerecruiting or

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interviewing for salespeople Damon we look for intelligenceDrive

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humility passion and optimism so when you look at thosethings we could have an introvert who's

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a really good salesperson we could have an extrovert who's agreat salesperson we could have an ambt who's a great

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salesperson so great salespeople are made they're not bornso this show is

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all about well about learning and I've heard you talk aboutit in your book and elsewhere you know your love for

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learning where did that start and how is it had a positiveimpact both personally and professionally oh what a great

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question I I think it started on a a couple of differentlevels you know I think we all have this love of learning

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early in life and and then throughout college and you youknow um high school

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and University and sports and music I think Damon when I gotto kind

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of my mid 20s and early 30s I actually think that love oflearning kind of

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plateaued and I think what had happened was I kind of got toa certain level of Athletics certain level of Music ability

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certain level of professional capability and I seem to bewith companies that were taking a little more

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from me than teaching me or maybe I wasn't open to it andyou know I I ended

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up investing in an MBA an Executive MBA in my low 30s and ittriggered this just

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re-engage that love of learning where once you get into anMBA you understand most things in business aren't that

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complicated you can learn anything I thought Finance used tobe a bit of a mystery it's not really it's pretty

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simple and then it just kind of triggered this thought thathey anything can be thought through and learned and I

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just get these dopamine hits from learning so you and I weretalking offline I'm also you know I still play

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hockey I I like to drum in a you know a bar band I'm notvery good but I slowly get better I take drum lessons again the

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kid who comes in before me before my drum lesson he comesout he's 9 years old I'm older than his mom his mom picks

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him up and then I go in for my drum lesson so like I'm theold kid in the class but but I just I just love

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learning new ideas keeping an open mind and that belief thatthrough practice

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rehearsal and hard work you can continue to improve do youfind that as people

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climb the corporate ladder and get more senior and moresenior roles they tend to get to a position where maybe they

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feel like they know it all or they're not really open tolearning as much as they used to be you know I I do find

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that at times and and you know sometimes we get brought intotrains some of those companies Damon and one of the hopes is

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that you know our training program actually re-engages thatgrowth orientation

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that growth mindset but I do find that sometimes that we getstuck in and we achieve some things in life and maybe

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you're listening to this and you're you're running a salesterritory you've been doing it for a few years and you're

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pretty good at it you know and you're executing all the timeum I think at

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times it gets hard to take a pause and go hey what's thenext thing I need to learn what's the next thing I want to

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learn um sometimes that's driven by the people we report toright if you have a

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great coach a great leader then they might invest incompanies like yours or

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mine to come and help the team or that kind of leaderbelieve understands their job is to really Unleash Your Potential

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if you're part of their team but not all leaders have thatperspective sometimes the leader under a lot of pressure and

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they kind of default to seeing you as just another set ofarms and legs to help them achieve their

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objectives and so I think I think sales people today reallyhave to look at the environment they're in and get a little

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bit away from hey How much money am I making and get alittle bit closer towards what am I learning every year

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you know that's really the most important thing I think atthis stage for what we do because things are changing so much in B2B sales what

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inspired you to write your new book uh learn to love sellingat this point in

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your career um great question also well well first of all wewe've been doing that kind of training you know

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originally when we started started the company Damon maybeI'll go there we started as a sales enablement consulting

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firm that meant we'd come in and we'd look at kind ofmidsize organizations and they go to market and we look at the

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strategy structure the people the process and tools and wecome back and make recommendations on how to elevate sales

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performance in a reasonably short period of time almost likean outsourced VP of

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sales and back then what we would do was we would send theteam away for training

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to some of the these great companies methodologies MillerHeyman um spin

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selling you know some of these Challenger sale existed inthose days so all of those things we we'd send them

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outside for training one of the things we realized over timewas that there was no single methodology that you could go

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to that would help you convert whatever core B2B businesscapability you had

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into Revenue there were methodologies that helped with thequestions you ask

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there was methodologies that helped you understand thebuying team kind of making a decision but there was nothing

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that said well how do I jump into a sales territory andactually think through all of the things I need to

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think through to convert my company's core capability intoRevenue so that's

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why we wrote the book we wrote that methodology and whowould you say is

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really if you had to narrow it down the target audience uhfor your book anybody

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thanks anybody in be to be sales today if you manage a salesterritory today

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this we believe there'd be some value in this book to you soit's going to help

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you create your sales plan for the next year and then on aquarterly basis it'll

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help you recalibrate that sales plan you know to react orrespond to whatever is

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happening so that at the end of the year you're in a goodposition and Mark I'm I'm sure you've seen this because I sure

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have a lot of times at the beginning of the year you createyour sales plan your individual sales plan and then you

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literally don't even know where to where to find itafterwards how how is what you teach both in your book and through

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your training how's that different than the status quo andthe smile if you're watching this on YouTube it's

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unbelievable when you say that you know because it's firstof all it's so true Damon totally and we literally will come

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into companies and they'll be so proud to tell us abouttheir annual planning process and then I'll go well how's Jim

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doing again you know his goal that he came up with sixmonths ago I have no idea nobody's seen it since January

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since we all did the offsite so so as part of the the bookwhat we do after talking about the core

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elements of the sales Playbook so what that individual needsto build in terms of their sales plan we also have a few

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chapters in the book about sales leadership and how thesales leader sets up a Cadence to make sure that we're

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tracking against that plan that this individual came up withso so that's a key thing here I mean you

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want to make sure the plan is simple easy to understand it'sstrategic and tactical but then we have to track

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progress against it you know and and then recalibrate basedon the results I think simple is a key one because if you

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make it too complex and unclear then sales people don't wantto do it to begin with anyways so they're just going

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to push it aside so in your book you really have broken itdown into four key

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components what I'd like you to do is walk us through thosefour key components but also share with us why

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why did you land on those four to focus on so so let'sthanks D let's think about um any Core Business capability

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out there we think there are these four key elements toconvert that core capability into revenue and sometimes

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there can be a fifth which I'll talk about which we left outof the book but the first one is value proposition

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messaging so our value proposition is this three-leggedstool where we

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communicate what we do how what we do as a core capabilityties to a desired

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business outcome of a client so what are we going to do forthem and then our competitive differentiation so how are

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we unique and different given their other options in themarketplace if we're in B2B sales today

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and we can't answer this question you know who are you guysand you know why should I consider you given the fact I'm

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using somebody else today if we don't have a good answer tothat question we don't deserve to be speaking to any

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buyer out there so we have to get this value propositionmessaging down right and it's not an easy thing to do by the

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way but once we understand our value proposition to ourMarket we then have to prioritize the pursuit of the market

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that's the second step of the process that starts by firstunderstanding our ideal client profile and then deciding

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how am I going to build opportunities within my territory ofthat ideal client

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profile both looking at my existing base of clients can Igrow share of wallet

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and then how do I prioritize the pursuit of new logos or anycompany's not doing business with us today so if I want to

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be productive I got to be very intentional about how I spendthat time third element of it is I then have to

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reach out to them and make something happen I have to createdemand your business Dame and my business were're

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both privileged we'll get some inbound leads that come intoour business many of them from both of our books our books

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but usually it's not enough to keep the funnel filled withenough sales opportuni so we have to do demand

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generation but professional modern demand generation this iswhat they used

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to call coold calling 50 years ago but today there aremodern techniques for

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doing this to get the attention and interest of somebody sothat I can trigger a

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conversation those first three elements really will create aqualified sales

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opportunity for our business the fourth we call salesexecution it's really

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thinking through sales process the steps to complete a salefor our business sales strategy my plan to

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progress along those steps successfully and then funnelmanagement understanding the volume and

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velocity of deals I've got to be working to hit my goals sovalue proposition

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territory management demand generation and then s Salexecution those are the four elements of the sales Playbook

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what's the fifth one awareness campaigns so so when we doteaching so

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awareness campaigns goes smack dab in the middle and forlarge organizations you might think of this as marketing and

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what they end up doing frankly is awareness campaigns mightbe you know giving us some inbound leads they come

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to us like a book it's an awareness campaign but more likelyfor most of the people listening today the awareness

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campaigns and the marketing out there they're credibilityShield when we do demand generation so if our team's going

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to reach out to your company name and to talk about salestraining you may you

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know get an email from us you might get a voicemail thefirst thing you're going to do is check out the LinkedIn page for in the funnelthen you're going to check

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out the website and look for some testimonials online youmight check out our YouTube channel so so these

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awareness campaigns tend to be this credibility Shield whenwe're doing demand

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generation and I think that's so important to and this goesfor sales leaders individual sales reps and CEOs

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the importance of building your brand around say forinstance LinkedIn you know a lot of people say well I don't

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need a brand but you really do because I know people areselling to me all the time Marc and the first thing I do is I

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look them up on LinkedIn you know the person I'm going totalk to I look at some of their post some of the things that they have to say Ithink it's so

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critical so I think that's a good fifth one to add but Iwant to go back to Value prop because I think value prop is

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a is tough you know I found it to be tough yes you know tokind of set the stage for what a great value prop looks

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like can you share like a cringeworthy example of one you'vecome across that was just you know awful what a great one

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let me think about it so so let's think of those threethings we want to do we want to explain our core capability we

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want to tie it you know to a desired outcome of a client soand they only

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have three desired outcomes we'll get two and then I wantsome form of competitive differentiation and it's got

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to be fact a cringe word the value proposition would be heywelcome to in

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the funnel we've been doing sales training for 13 years wehave the top rated sales training program in North

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America who cares maybe that's what my website you know sayssomething like that too no facts nothing about what we

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do for the companies we work with no no competitivedifferentiation that would be one so

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when you when you get into these what I call motherhood andapple pie statements we give White glove service we've been

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in business for 35 years who cares nobody cares you've beenin business nobody wants to see a picture of your uh

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your building you're in either the building absolutely thebuilding you're in or your device right you know this is

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this is our manufacturing this is what we where we do theprinting I might you know if I was a printer and I had love

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of graphics and all that that might mean a lot to me but thepeople who buy printing they they could care less about

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the device it's printed on all they care about is increasingRevenue with the marketing tool they're they're buying

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from you how often do you recommend that uh an organizationreassess their value

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prop oh what a great question so so value proposition Damonwhen we get into it without making it too complicated if

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you say hey I've got to explain my core capability I've gotto be able to explain the desired outcome that I

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provide clients and I've got to be able to describe mycompetitive differentiation so what's unique and

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different about us given their other options in themarketplace value prop proposition so hard because at the core

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it's your business strategy so when we start to think ofyour organization or my organization let's say we were

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talking to our investors they go why should we invest inyour company we actually explain our value prop we say this is the market

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we're going to sell to this is what we do this is why wethink we can compete and win with our competitive

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differentiation so so I I think it changes slightly based onwho you're speaking to

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at your customer organization it might change slightly basedon which industry

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you're selling into because you may have certain types ofcompetitors when you're selling into

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one industry like technology you might have different typesof competitors when you're selling into more traditional um

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organizations or Industries like manufacturing so so if theenvironment

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changes where the outcomes you're providing clients changeor the

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competitive landscape change changes you might have to tweakit but generally you

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know your clients only have three desired business outcomesevery client you sell to at the

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highest level they want to do one of three things they wantto increase Revenue they want to reduce expenses and

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they want to reduce risk if what you do can help themachieve one of those things it could be you know a domino

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that leads to it chances are there might be a return oninvestment for whatever it is you're selling them right so so as

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long as those things don't change I don't think your valueproposition changes dramatically so just to use an

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example so people say you know what's our core capability orour value proposition our core capability is you

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know we're a group of sales trainers and Consultantscompanies engage us when

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they actually want to increase Reven Revenue we helpcompanies sell better okay that's that's why they engage us or

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they want to add discipline to their go to market or theyactually want to win in their Market by how well they sell

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but they're all tied to revenue growth so our valueproposition generally

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resonates with the clients we sell into but what they'regoing to come back to is say hey Mark there's a gazillion

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sales trainers out there what's different about you what'sunique and different about you we we need a good

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answer for that one of the answers generally is the factthat everybody who

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teaches for in the funnel every one of our trainers hasactually been a practitioner they've want run very large

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material sales organization in their recent past because webelieve that if

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you're training a sales organization the people in the roomcan tell whether you've done it or not they can almost

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smell it when you're in front of the room the second thingwe think makes us unique and different is we have a formal

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methodology that we've captured in a training curriculum ina book and in an

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online learning academy that enables those people who don'twant to read to

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learn the same content with a series of short coachingvideos that they can continue to go to time and time again so

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does this make us the perfect company no it doesn't but doesthis mean we think we've got something some form of

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competitive differentiation in our Marketplace absolutely wedo now a lot of companies struggle with exactly what

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you said earlier there's a thousand training companies nowthere could also be a thousand uh AI companies that

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service construction software I mean doesn't matter what itis what advice do you have for Founders or leaders who

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struggle with finding a clear competitive differentiator askyour

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existing Cent cents okay you've got a client base today ofsmart buyers and in many cases

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they've continue to support your organization for years andbelieve me they revisit the money they spend and

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they make Intelligent Decisions so you may have thisperspective on why they engaged you originally four years ago 5

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years ago on a regular basis I think it's really importantto have health check meetings with your most important

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clients to go Hey listen Damon thank you than you so muchfor honoring us with

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your business tell us a little bit about how we're doing andwhy you continue to

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support our company and or I might even go to them and sitdown and say you know what Damon we're we're revisiting some

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of our marketing and our messaging and we really want tounderstand what value

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we provide to your business tell us a little bit about whyyou continue to use us and when they come back and go hey

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Mark well you know we we really love your trainingmethodologies and it has a a super positive implication on our new

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hires that's why we can continueing to invest in them Imight start to push on that a little bit and say well listen

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that's great tell me a little bit more on that how do youget a return on investment for the X dollar you spent

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with us you know how do you measure that how do you trackthat the more I can get

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them to tell me more tell me more please expand I want toreally understand why

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they lever us at the end of the day by the way one of thethings they might say is well

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Damon we we continue to use your company because of you welove the relationship I I'd invite you to push on

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that as well say listen thank you so much for that what isit about the

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relationship you know so so hear it straight from yourclients and continue to get that feedback from the market and

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don't be afraid to ask those questions what else can we bedoing for you

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you know if I were to put you in a corner and say you haveto find two things that we could do better for you what can we do but but Ithink our

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client bases will tell us the real value we provide them andthat's so important because I I think a lot of times the

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value we P perceive that we bring them is different than theperception they

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have and it's important for us to really understand that nowone little tip that

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I've I've tried over the years I can't remember who sharedthis with me but it's worked pretty well is sometimes during the onboard inPhase Mark when we

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bring in great new reps we actually have them sit down andand talk to our

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customers uh and interview them so they can learn firsthandwhere learn it brings value into the organization by

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the way what a great idea you know when you have thoseamazing client relationships they're happy to

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share uh Damon we did a sales kickoff we ran a salestraining day for a great

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company called Gillis sales they they're an Outsource salesagenc for um the hospitality industry they did something

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so smart they they gave us a day to do our sales trainingwhich was totally awesome and then the second day was a

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was a client appreciation day where the clients were on thestage sharing the

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value that Gillis brings to them and then it enabled thewhole Gillis sales

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organization to ask questions and to learn and then they didbreakouts where they had very small group discussions

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with with these clients and really what it shows the clientbase is how important they are to the

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organization and how much they want to stay close to what'sgoing on with the business because at the end of the day

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if we help those clients achieve their desired businessoutcomes if we help clients run better businesses then we're

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going to be a valuable partner to them and that's exactlywhat you turn into you become a partner right not not just

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a vendor and it's almost reciprocal too where you bring themin they get to share their story and sometimes they can

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even have impact in you know some of the decisions that youmake and I think that really helps deepen that relationship

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with them yeah well said and when you get to that level asyou know you know you're running a Material Company

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yourself as as much as you help your clients you're also aCEO of a very large company Material Company you

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understand there's certain U partners that you work with youdon't really care about what you spend you don't really

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see it as an expense you see it as an investment becausethose companies help you run a

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better business so it's it's an investment in either yourrevenue or your profitability you don't really

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Nickel in dime so you don't really care about cost or insome cases service features or those kinds of details

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because you know those partners are going to be there foryou to help you run a better business so let's move on

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to demand genen you in your book I believe you say that it'skind of like the X Factor of great reps so what

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separates those who really excel at demand gen than thosewho struggle the

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consistency with which they do it so so we've got a lot ofyou know I'd say 70

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75% of anybody out there in a B2B sales job today they'reactually more of an account manager than a B2B salesperson

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today so they're not doing a lot of demand Generation Um formost organizations somewhere between 60 and

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75% of their revenue comes from their existing customer basedoesn't mean it's totally easy Damon you know you still

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need we still need talented skilled people to do that butbut if you want to Future proof your career and you're

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listening to this podcast today I think what you have tohave that capability is reach out in the universe and create

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demand for your product or service and so what we see iseven the most successful reps they get out of the

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cycle of Doom and the cycle of Doom is I do a little bit ofdemand generation I get a few deals on my pipeline then I

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spend all my time working on those deals then some of themclose and I high five

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then I look in my pipeline again and it's empty empty then Igo through this whole process again of I got to start I

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got to ramp up again it's a bit of pain and Agony it's veryslow process I think

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the the Reps that are successful of it you you you got toget away from thinking of this as a

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grind and start to think of this as one of the mostchallenging parts of B2B

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sales that takes intelligence and skill and authenticity andIngenuity but make

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it a a part of at least your weekly rout routine you knowyou've got to have a couple of days in there that you block

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the calendar and just go I'm going to fill the top of thefunnel today and do it consistently and Damon we're no

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different I still do demand generation for in the funnelwe're very privileged we get a lot of inbound leads we get

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some teammates that do good work here but at the end of theday I still have to kicking new doors for us as well my

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my belief is that if you're a B2B rep and you're waiting oninbound leads

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you're going to starve yes you really are and you know I Iagree with the

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consistency 100% my recommendation like is block your timeput it on your

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calendar and and stay you know stay intentional and true tothat time Mark demand gen what does that mean these

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days I mean everything is so crowded I mean is it is it cois it is it outbound calls is it LinkedIn prospecting is

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email still a thing I mean where do you cuz just likeeverything else you got to focus your time so uh you know if you're

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just an individual contributor and and you're and you'reresponsible you don't have a marketing team doing that work for you how wouldyou rank those in in

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in that direction so so I don't mean to be cheeky at allDamon I'm going to ask you the same question I know you're very

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good at this too but the answer to that is yes so you talkedabout LinkedIn you

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talked about the telephone M you talked about email let'stalk about each of

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those you know for a second so so LinkedIn you have toleverage LinkedIn there's a billion people on LinkedIn

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today okay it's migrating away from that job hunt you knowjob placement uh tool

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it really is a bit of a sales and a networking tool but youhave to think of it as a networking tool not an overt

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sales tool one of the best thinkers we've seen out there onLinkedIn is a guy named Tim Hughes and he's written a

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great book called social selling and at some point in timeyou should be on his podcast and he should be on your podcast

28:27

he's just a great guy he's in the UK he's in London Iwatched your interview with him oh did you yeah he's a great

28:33

guy a yeah great it seems like a great guy yeah and I Ilearned uh you guys would get along you're you're terrific

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um I I also learned a lot you know where they think of okayleverage it as a social platform so be social whereas

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what happens a lot with me today and same with you you're aCEO you'll connect with a financial planner and immediately they're going topitch their

28:53

financial planning Services it's like somebody came to me ata cocktail party and immediately said hey can I give you

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my card we should talk about your portfolio no I just wantto talk about hockey you know so be

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social the next thing let's talk about the telephone peopleavoid the

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telephone but you and I are probably old enough to rememberthere was a time when I used to get so many voicemails it

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would fill my voicemail in a given day now what I getinstead of that what I

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get today is 250 emails but I get three voicemails so I

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actually listen to them and you'll stand out if you leave mea professional voicemail where you can articulate a

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value proposition and you show you know something about megiven what I do I'm going to actually take the call I have

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to it's I have a moral obligation to take call fromsalespeople giveing what we do so leverage the telephone and I do

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like telephone first I like leveraging the telephone firstthird with email

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there are three 320 billion emails go back and forth everyday 320 billion emails go back and

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forth every day incredibly difficult to stand out andmarketing automation

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technology has totally poisoned that communication protocolthat being said research still

30:17

says to a certain extent it works but one of the things I Iwould counsel

30:22

people out there is a marketing automation email is fine ifyou're

30:29

adding value but not selling so Damon if I know your companyadds enormous

30:34

amounts of value online if you've got a piece or a tool or abit of research

30:39

that you want to help your database with sure send an emailblast to them and say

30:45

here's something you might be interested in here's somethingthat might be helpful you in terms of the latest and greatest in terms oflearning to to um

30:52

Elevate the performance of your team but if you actuallywant to do demand generation get away from email

30:58

try and move toward very specific reach outs so use the therifle not a shotgun

31:04

and do your research I think if you can do your research andunderstand you've got a point of interest you know who the

31:10

person is you're reaching out to you know their businesstheir industry you have some value to provide try that do

31:18

fewer emails make them more targeted and and let thatindividual know you know

31:23

something about them so so that's what i' think about doingand we you know I'm

31:29

a Canadian we talked about this you're based in SanFrancisco I'm based in Toronto of course every analogy I use is

31:35

hockey but we just call it a hot trick if I want to speak toyou at any given time Damon I'm doing three things I'm

31:42

leaving you a voicemail I'm reaching out VI LinkedIn and I'mgoing to send you an email and then 3 days from now I'm going

31:48

to do the same thing again but it's also a hot trick so so Iwould think about

31:53

you know how having a disciplined approach to reaching outand I'll probably do that three or four times and

31:59

then I'll do a breakup voicemail where I just say Hey listenDamon you know sounds like you're busy it's fantastic I

32:05

had a chance to try and reach out a couple of times wehaven't had a chance to connect I think it's amazing that

32:11

you're busy what I'm going to do I'm going to stand down fora few months here but in the event that you actually

32:16

wanted to speak to me I'd be delighted to speak to youanytime so here's my number you know very pleasant very

32:23

positive then I'd put you into a nurture campaign for threeor four months then I'd start targeting you again so so we

32:31

get into sequences in the book there's lots of differentsequences and approaches that we take but we like a

32:37

multi-channel reach out but only reach out if you knowsomething about the person you're reaching out to no more

32:44

blind sending it to everybody there's no point to do thatthey're not reading them yeah I know I I and I like in your

32:51

book how you talk about you know uh warm reach outs and andmaking it a little bit personalized there's nothing that

32:57

that turns me off more well maybe there are things but thangetting an email

33:03

with somebody talking about how they help Microsoft Oraclein all of these

33:08

these billion dollar companies like you know what I meanlike why are you even waste why you even waste your time everything I I AG withyou know

33:14

everything you're saying there I'm a big fan of LinkedIn100% And the phone still does work I

33:21

don't care what anybody says even if if if it means justleaving voicemails leaving good voicemails that sometimes

33:27

even add uh the other one email I I think is almost a wasteto be honest in my

33:33

opinion but I see what you're saying another one I think isreally good if your organization can afford it is

33:38

conferences you know uh we've closed some big deals Latelyfrom in-person conferences but that also takes Mark you

33:45

know not just sitting there you know going out and andhaving conversations with people and like you said being

33:50

social but being social and person well thanks for that onthe conferences by the way and you've seen it right Damon

33:57

um you know we come back to your voicemail point because Ithink that's another one to double click on but the

34:02

conference is there the way of working a conference andworking at conference is not sitting in my booth you know

34:09

standing there feeling lonely working at conference isyou're in the middle of the aisle you've got a smile and a

34:16

handshake you're you're greeting authentically greeting youknow the folks that are coming by and seeing you

34:22

at the booth working a conference means weeks in advanceyou're setting up up

34:27

meetings by getting the lists of who's at the conferencereaching out to them in a professional way asking for a quick

34:34

coffee while they're at the conference but really what we'retrying to do is these things kind of matter um there's a

34:41

reason people set up lines outside of bars when they'reempty on the inside groups attract groups so you have to be

34:49

that booth at the conference where people you know have anengaging smile your natural face is a smile you're a

34:55

very pleasing happy person at mine isn't my resting facelooks very mean so I

35:01

have to force a smile yeah I think you're all right you knowwhat I'm I'm a happy goodlucky person but my resting

35:07

face just does not have an engaging you know look so I youknow but being smile open having conversations with people

35:14

and then setting up meetings you know well in advance by theway communicating

35:20

with people you know when you're at the conference leveragethat con conference for social media across the entire group

35:28

talk about some of the key learnings and then postconference there's going to be a lot of intentional followup and days

35:34

block to make sure this happens I know everybody listeningto this is going to say well everybody does

35:40

that people do this but they don't they're never the firstones to do it I like to be they drop off and they drop

35:47

off thank you I always like to be the first ones to doanything so um we have

35:53

a wonderful client of ours it's actually the reverse theysent us one wonderful gifts and they're so lovely they called

36:01

facility plus they do uh c um industrial cleaning and andcommercial cleaning but

36:06

they're the first holiday basket we get at the end ofNovember for the holiday

36:12

time frame boy does it matter getting that first basket youknow by December

36:17

26th you've had a few baskets and some flowers andeverything from lots of people that first one feels so great so

36:24

I like the idea of being first in these things and justdoing intentional planning but if our companies are going

36:30

to make those Investments those very expensive Investmentsto send us places and do conferences we absolutely have an

36:38

obligation to work that show that's not just walking aroundyou know and seeing

36:43

what happens sometimes Damon I don't know if you've heardthis from from folks but they go well it wasn't a very good show nobody came bythe

36:51

booth I mean got hle yeah the booth and the location hasnothing to do with the

36:58

success or how our booth looks has almost nothing to do withthe success

37:03

some of our clients go to shows and we counsel them just geta hospitality suite save the money on from the trade

37:11

show get a hospitality suite get a barista in thehospitality suite or you

37:17

know somaler and and bring up some you know wine and cheeseand invite everybody

37:24

right after the show to pop up for a quick drink and to hearfrom a wine

37:29

connoisseur that way we'll have lots of conversations andmake some connections and maybe get a little more bang for a

37:35

marketing buck so really working the show but I know youyou've given great coaching on this as well what do you

37:41

suggest regarding shows I think I really like what you saidabout being first I think that's great you know and also

37:47

maybe being a little unique and different if you can uh onething that we're going to try at a big conference coming up uh is we're goingto set up a

37:55

podcast booth and um and interview um some senior levelindividuals there and

38:02

uh start reaching out to the conferences until May but startreaching out to them to them then but yeah you're right if

38:08

you have a booth and you stand behind your booth and andyou're not hustling or not going out having conversations I

38:13

think you're you're you're wasting your time and it can getvery expensive so Mark whether it's through calls whether

38:20

it's through Linkedin whether it's through email now you gotthe discovery meeting and in your book and I agree

38:28

with this you you say that discovery meetings are the mostimportant phase of the whole sales process can you kind of

38:35

walk us through why it's so important and maybe a little bitabout your framework or your ideas of what a good

38:42

Discovery call looks like by the way Damon I just want tocall it out and say thank you anybody listening to this if you ever get anopportunity to be on

38:48

this show clearly Damon has just studied my book and by theway first of all

38:53

thank you thank you thank you so much for doing that well itbenefits thank you because it benefits me because like

38:59

I said t before I didn't mean to cut you off again I'm getno is um I went out

39:05

bought your book for our whole team and we're going to do itas a book club and go through the the the the the different

39:11

key um things that we talk about today because a lot of itis super important and something that maybe you've talked

39:18

about or you heard before but there's a different way thatyou're talking about doing it and it's something that if you want to besuccessful I think there's so

39:24

many things in there that that are important so thank youfor the kind remark oh that's great thank you for their

39:29

gracious common statement and at the end of this asked meabout that why these things haven't changed that much in a

39:34

100 years we could we could talk about that a little bit toobut but just on the Discovery you know often times we'll

39:41

get in brought into an organization and you know they'll umthey'll ask us for that hook or that

39:48

closing technique as if there's some magical phrase that Ican utter that's

39:53

going to make everybody on this podcast kind of engage ourConsulting service is or or or and my response is that sales

40:01

are made or lost during the discovery phase and it just goesback to the definition of busino business sales to

40:09

today B2B sales is really a little bit of managementconsulting and at the end of the day what we're trying to do is

40:15

help a client achieve that desired outcome you know thatdesired you know business outcome now there's an

40:22

emotional component to that there's a logical component tothat but I can't help help someone achieve a desired

40:29

outcome if I don't know what it is so the discovery phase isso important

40:35

because the whole sales process is about them it's not aboutme and pitching my

40:40

sales training and what's unique and different about us noone cares what they care about yeah they don't care

40:47

they care about whatever their world is they're a CEO theycare about driving

40:52

Revenue reducing cost of making profit reducing risk I mightbe a division president

40:58

where what I care about is running my division well andmaking sure my sales organization differentiates in the

41:04

market by how well they sell because I want I want Revenuegrowth I also want to improve retention and loyalty with my

41:10

sales team I also want to actually unleash the potential ofmy sales team so that they all progress through the

41:16

organization so so the discovery phase is where we earn theright to learn

41:23

about that individual and their needs and wants what arethey trying to achieve but we really have to earn that

41:31

right we earn that right through research so doing ourhomework before

41:37

those meetings so that we understand them the business theindustry and also being able to provide some value and

41:45

insight Discovery is not about me doing qualification andasking you three

41:51

questions that then sets me up to start pitching salestraining because for the most part again no one one cares about

41:58

the details of our sales training what they care about theywant to understand can Mark and his team at in the funnel

42:05

actually improve the way we sell can we compete and win inthe market because we sell better than other

42:11

organizations they won't believe we can do that if unlessthey know that we know

42:17

a lot about them and their business and what they're tryingto achieve so so you

42:22

can't spend too much time in Discovery what you're trying toget is this authentic conversation but you have to

42:30

earn it and you really are earning that Discovery in everyconversation with a

42:36

client or Prospect and we have a nice little sales process Dand you know like

42:42

everybody but I really think the discovery phase Bridgesevery stage of the sales process you're always learning

42:49

it's it's ongoing and even with existing clients we likesetting up a regular

42:55

health check with them at least a couple of times a yearwhere we put all the current business off to the side and

43:01

just go tell me about what's going on with your businessokay what are the goals what are the objectives how are

43:06

you doing against them what are the opportunities what arethe barriers tell me more tell me more tell me more and

43:13

it's not just the things that pertain directly to what wecan solve for I just want to understand what's happening in

43:19

their business because then I can go away and figure outokay given what I

43:24

know how do we help them might be with some of our salestraining might be with

43:30

our Network maybe we have to introduce them to someone likeyou in your business I just want to make sure the

43:36

more I know about that client and Prospect the betterposition I'm in to figure out if we can help them and all

43:42

that takes place in the discovery phase So for anybodylistening our experience

43:47

generally is that people Rush Discovery because they'rethey're dying to get a proposal out because I can't wait to get

43:54

a proposal because now I got this qualified opportunity insales force and it goes one stage F further

44:00

Salesforce is the biggest liar I've ever come across in myprofessional career if

44:06

you want to be misled look into your own CRM system rightnow and look at what

44:12

the predictive funnel is that is a science fiction moviethat Marvel is going to come out with next year okay

44:20

doesn't matter doesn't matter what the stage if we do workon less increase

44:25

conversion rates do better Discovery if we focus more onDiscovery start to think about the questions we ask then

44:33

we're actually going to get higher conversion raids don'tworry about mailing out five proposals none of them

44:39

are going to close as a sales leader how do you help uncoverthose opportunities

44:45

and speaking to your your reps and help push them intoputting that into a closed lost so not they're not focusing

44:51

their time on areas that are just waste of time I thinkthere it's a great question I think there I think there's

44:57

some very tactical things like like you might look at a dealand go um at a high level you could

45:04

look at some facts what's our average cycle time to close adeal I'd almost go so let's say for example within the

45:10

funnel we got a 4mon kind of sales cycle time generally youknow for a major

45:16

sales training initiative if somebody's working somethingtoday in our funnel and got twice the cycle time it's

45:22

already been in there for twice I I automatically take itout nobody takes twice as long to think about it it's not

45:28

qualified so so the decis dead we don't even know it's deadthen then there's

45:34

more tactical things to think about okay when was the lasttime we had a conversation do we have a definitive

45:40

Next Step but the first question we like asking our team isto to maybe play the

45:47

the obstinate individual and go when they say Hey listenwell we're going to work with the lmbe organization and

45:53

we're going to do a major sales training initiative ourfirst question question is why do they need to do sales training

46:00

what are they going to get out of it and we sort of askedthose those kinds of questions then when they say

46:06

well listen you know their their head of HR has come to usthey do sales training every year um you know they had budget

46:13

last year they were working with different company they wantto move to us here's why then our next question is

46:19

when their CFO ask them exactly what return on investment dothey get for the

46:24

dollars they're spending with us what's the answer to thatquestion so we'll ask

46:30

them some of those kind of questions not to take the windout of their sales but

46:35

to help them think about okay have we helped thisorganization really figure out whether or not they need to do this

46:40

and so for those leading who are in a sales leadership jobtoday first of all your sales team is going if they're a

46:48

good team and you hired them well they are going to benaturally optimistic okay so pessimists will not

46:55

last in B2B sales they're not going to make it over the Lhaul so you can't take away the

47:02

naturally optimistic tendency of somebody and B Tob salesthat's their lifeblood they need to be optimistic the

47:09

role of the sales leader is to have that sober second set ofeyes on a few things to ask some of those questions because

47:16

the sales leader has to be a little bit more objectivebecause someone's going to ask them about

47:22

forecasting so we have to we have to help our salespersonwho's naturally optimistic

47:27

think through some things in terms of qualification and allprogress starts

47:32

with the truth so I can either think I've got 10 deals in myfunnel and I'm going to close three or why don't I take

47:40

out those ones that are really not qualified so I eitherkill them or I put them earlier in a stage now I'm going to

47:47

Zone in on five deals but still win three but now I'mfocusing in on the

47:52

right three I'm spending my time and attention I'm givingmyself a little white space in my calendar to think

48:00

about those things and I'm also going to realize I got a topof funnel issue I'm going to have to worry about for next

48:05

quarter Beyond helpful Beyond helpful um so let's just stickwith we're talking

48:12

about the role of the sales leader and uh we talk about thatyou talk about that in your book I think it's I don't

48:17

know chapter 10 or chapter something around there um whereshould sales

48:23

leaders spend their time what a great question so so salesleaders have three of the

48:29

most demanding stakeholders out there they've got first ofall they've got clients they're working with okay so so

48:37

I have to spend time with clients if I'm a sales leader thisis not 12 14 years ago when

48:45

Salesforce first got commercially viable you know what thatdid CRM systems moved

48:50

a good sales leader from being in the field to sitting intheir office counting stuff in the past it really

48:56

Chang the role so I love everybody to think about if if Iwas running a sales team today my first stakeholders always

49:03

clients I want to spend 40% of my time in the field with myteam in front of

49:09

clients while coaching my team so so those two great thingshappen

49:15

there the second key stakeholder I've got is my sales teamso I have to make

49:20

time for my sales team through a welld disciplinedmanagement Cadence which we can talk about and then the third

49:27

stakeholder I have is my executive teammates or my board andas a sales leader they're going to be looking at me

49:34

almost with a black and white metric of success okay so I'msitting around an

49:39

executive table I run sales got a head of marketing head ofHR head of operations head of product I've got the

49:46

CEO the only person at that table who whose success andfailure scorecard is

49:51

public domain is me it's on a scoreboard everybody elsearound the table knows exactly how I'm doing at all times

49:58

because sales performance is public domain but I don'treally know how the head of HR is doing or the head of

50:04

operations or the head of product they have a far lessbinary black and white measure of success so so it's this is

50:12

why the role of a sales leader is very difficult today andit's very stressful

50:18

pulled in three different directions by importantstakeholders so I'd I'd rather see sales

50:24

leaders spending a lot of time in front of clients a lot oftime with the sales team

50:29

coaching the sales team not telling them what to do butelevating their performance and then over here a little

50:37

bit of time on admin and spending time with my exec team butthat would be that

50:42

would be my third priority by a long shot can you give anexample of what you mean by uh coaching instead of telling

50:49

them what to do oh so great so another wonderful bookanother wonderful guest for you Liz wisman multipliers

50:57

um fantastic book but we can either multiply thecapabilities of the people on our sales team or we diminish them

51:03

according to Liz Stephen COV Cy the Speed Of Trust had himon the show he's

51:08

the best isn't he we had him on the show too he's such anice such a nice guy so passionate he would have stayed around

51:15

talking for hours he is so true to what he believes this isthe joy of running

51:20

the podcast isn't it oh it's the best you get incredibleconversations and and learning opportunities coach

51:27

is really letting somebody try something okay then you knowagreeing on what

51:34

we're trying to do let them try it okay don't jump in andsave it don't give the

51:40

answer finish the meeting leave the meeting and then sitdown and go how do

51:46

you think that went let's identify the two things we reallyliked and the two things we might do differently coaching

51:53

is this intentional process of actually elevating theperformance of somebody on

51:59

your team through intentional questions and a verydefinitive process telling is what happens when you

52:07

first become a sales leader and for some reason you thinkit's a good idea to go I have an open door policy because you

52:13

don't know what else to do and so you go I have an open doorpolicy and for the first day of being a sales leader that's

52:20

a good idea and then it becomes every day somebody runs inyour office and and

52:26

goes here's what's happening with a client what should I doand because you're not thinking and you're doing

52:31

five other things you tell them what to do then they leaveand they do it and it

52:38

works and so the next time they come and ask you earlier inthe process they stop

52:44

thinking and they just start asking you but now you've got10 people doing that

52:49

all day every day and you're literally reducing the salesacument of

52:55

everybody on your team because you keep keep telling themthe answers to things coaching and Leadership is they

53:01

come in your office and go here's what I'm at what do youthink I should do and because you're well fed you're well

53:08

rested you've have white space in your calendar you got andyou you're actually intentionally working with this person

53:14

on certain things you go I don't know what do you think youshould do and then your salesperson says well I'm not sure

53:20

I'm kind of stuck that's why I asked you and then you comeback and say let's go out it this way hm

53:27

what do you think the options are okay you help thempatiently help

53:33

them jump outside a comfort zone but don't give them theanswer soon as we start telling people

53:40

what to do they're they you know we think we're helping themin the short term by the way the reason we love doing

53:46

it by the as sales leader is because it makes us feelvaluable we got all the answers and then 6 months later your

53:54

sales team is going to be miserable and by the way you'regoing to be miserable sooner than that as a sales lader so so

54:02

don't give folks the answers to things but this is why Icalled out you know the three different stakeholders St so

54:08

tough as you know because when I'm overworked and tired andI've committed

54:13

a forecast to my executive team my default is going to behey these five

54:18

deals that I said were going to win I better find out what'sgoing in on with all of them and I better close them so

54:26

so Sales Management often times defaults to opportunity

54:31

management and you know if the end of the quarter is chasingus then the sales leader starts getting very directive do

54:38

this do this do this do this because they're feeling thePanic of the Cadence they're feeling the Panic of the

54:44

quarterly Target but it it's a cycle of Doom because you getsalespeople they

54:50

don't like it the salese want to learn and grow so you takethat away from them the salese stop feeling they're the hero

54:57

of the story they you know cuz you're kind of the hero ofthe story they don't like that either and um I will say

55:04

probably shared it in the book but um when I first became asales manager maybe 20 years ago I was clearly not not

55:10

was I not only was I bad sales manager I'm pretty sure I wasthe worst sales

55:16

manager ever in the history of B2B business and if there'sanybody listening to this on that sales team

55:22

they're going to chat in and say he's right he was the worstwe've ever come AC across into 30-year history I'd sort

55:28

of been the wing gry of the sales team I got promoted on aFriday the Monday now I'm running a team I have no idea what

55:34

to do and so pretty quickly I started telling everybody whatto do they're

55:39

miserable um I'm miserable because now I feel like I've gotto drag six people

55:44

along and they're not doing it the same way I do it and Ican't understand why um and then you know it was only when I

55:51

got fortunate enough to get promoted into a differentdivision and I start running something where I had no

55:58

background in that business I didn't know what to do thatwhen you know my leadership team would come into me and

56:04

go here's where we're at what should we do I I wouldauthentically go I don't know what you should do what do you think you shoulddo and suddenly a lot

56:12

letting people make their own decisions letting them growletting their judgment flourish I almost tripped into good

56:19

management the hard way every time I'm on a podcast I Iapologize to that original team that I made so so

56:26

miserable question I have for you is let's look at from thesales leader perspective before you go into promoting

56:34

uh a individual contributor into a leadership role how doyou assess to see if if they have the traits and skills or

56:41

just even the makeup to to be a a leader one of the thingswould be you know has that individual who's been a very good

56:48

individual contributor have they been a good team playerdoes does it look like they enjoyed mentoring or supporting or

56:55

coaching other new hires into the business so do they helptheir teammates

57:00

are they a good teammate the second thing I think we couldall do is sit down with the individual and say listen you know

57:07

you've been a fantastic direct contributor um oneopportunity for

57:12

growth would be to move into a management role anotheropportunity for

57:18

growth might be to you know work super large accounts as adirect contributor or move into a marketing role or move

57:25

somewhere else in the organization you know do you thinkyou'd like to move into a management role and

57:33

you know a lot of us would automatically say yes right if Iwas a direct contributor then the question is why and

57:42

I just push on it a little bit because I think a lot ofpeople in sales they everybody you know if you're in sales

57:48

you're probably ambitious and maybe growth oriented and andso you have this idea

57:54

that moving into manage it's my next step up the chair butunless I've got somebody who's

58:02

going to get joy from unleashing the potential of everybodyelse on the team

58:09

they shouldn't go into management some people still want tobe the Wayne

58:14

Gretzky playing hockey and that's okay you know it's fun

58:20

being in sales I get it and you have control and you don'thave to get Success Through other people and it's

58:26

and it can stay about you you can be the person so so I justthink it's it's

58:31

worthy of having that individual go away and think about itbecause what we want as a leader is someone who really gets

58:38

the same Joy you and I Damon probably get today we likeworking with companies and leaders and sales people we love

58:44

seeing them improve and develop that's the big deal for usnow

58:50

we enjoy that but not everybody enjoys that and by the waythere's no judgment at all you know you just have to

58:57

understand if you're you know you're out there today youhave to understand what you like what makes you tick what you

59:04

want but the worst thing we can do is is promote somebodyinto a leadership position who sees the team as kind of

59:12

tools for them to still be the hero but now they've goteight tools doing different things for them and and

59:19

eventually that team's going to be unhappy and the leadergoing to be unhappy so so that's what I I would

59:25

suggest we're for a different skill set on a coach than weare on somebody who's

59:30

a direct contributor absolutely yeah it's a different skillset Mark and the

59:36

worst thing that could happen I agree with you is you haveeight people they're miserable and then you have this

59:43

person who used to be your top producer as an individualcontributor they're miserable and sometimes their ego won't

59:50

allow them to go to the CEO or their their sales leader andsay you know I want to you know tap out of this and so

59:57

what do they do they go and leave I've had that happen witha mentor of mine

1:00:03

who phenomenal sales rep went into leadership peoplecouldn't stand them he

1:00:08

couldn't stand them I told him to have a conversation to goback with his boss he's like I can't do that so he took a

1:00:14

job somewhere else and it's a fail fail all around actuallyI think I mentioned it in the book um when I first had that

1:00:20

job where I got promoted and I was just terrible at it I waspretty CL I was so miserable that I was pretty close to

1:00:27

leaving and and because there's this save face thing tooright you know

1:00:32

you're terrible the team knows you're terrible there's youknow you had no training I had no training or coaching

1:00:38

and and then I just got fortunate you know big companiessometimes make bad decisions they promoted me to something

1:00:45

else even though I clearly didn't deserve it and then I gotpromoted to run a Division I knew nothing about and

1:00:52

it it enabled me to start over and kind of think about itwhile you know still not looking terrible and just go okay

1:00:59

let's think about this differently instead of telling peoplelet's let's kind of ask people and let them enjoy it

1:01:05

and let them develop so I I think you have to um our nextbook by the way is

1:01:10

on Sales Management so this one was on the sales Playbookcalled you know learn

1:01:15

to love selling that the next one that we're going to do isgoing to be about leading and we're going to get into some

1:01:21

of this detail but just really believing that you're thereto unleash the potential of the team because they feel

1:01:28

that too there's nothing better than when you're working forsomeone like that where you know they're challenging you but they're trying tomake you

1:01:34

better uh that's a good situation all around is thereanything else that you like to share with the listeners about

1:01:41

your book before we close out with this amazing conversationno you know Damon I just want to first of all I want to say

1:01:47

thank you thank you thank you what a great conversation Ican't believe we've been chatting for an hour it's been

1:01:52

super super fun and and team uh one of the things I Isincerely hope for

1:01:59

everybody out there is listening to podcasts like this onewith Damon what

1:02:05

we're all going to end up doing is if we all focus onhelping our clients and Prospects what we're doing is we're

1:02:11

improving the performance and professionalism of B2B saleswe're actually elevating this business

1:02:18

discipline into the profession it deserves to be and thenyou'll be

1:02:24

happier right so if if we've changed this mindset if you'relistening today and you think hey I've got to pitch a

1:02:29

product or I've got to persuade or cajo somebody into it noone wants to do that it also doesn't work so when you listen

1:02:37

to these things and you study and there's lots of good booksand resources out there I I think what it ends up

1:02:42

doing is just helps you to like what we do and that will'llcome across and we're going to elevate this profession

1:02:48

so just I love this conversation Damon i' like to thank youagain for hosting me I can't wait to host you on our show

1:02:54

I want to just share with our listeners a couple of thetopics that we didn't talk about today uh for your great book

1:03:00

uh learn to love selling you know there's a great uh pieceon interviewing you know the importance of onboarding

1:03:06

and you know like you said the Cadence of what sales leadershould have you I mean you could really do a deep dive on

1:03:12

there and what I also really appreciate about the book isthere's interview questions there's practical tools there's so many Frameworksin there

1:03:18

that's valuable so you got to check out the book um thank asfar as our conversation today you know we talked

1:03:24

about that you sales can be a learn skill uh we talked aboutthe four components and we did a kind of a not a

1:03:31

deep dive but we talked a lot about value problem which Ithink is important um and the importance of demand generation and where leadersshould be

1:03:38

spending their time and so much more I mean Mark I trulyappreciate all your time today where can our listeners

1:03:46

connect with you at LinkedIn please Damon you brought it upin the the podcast as as um kind of the main place

1:03:53

to go these days we love to hear from folks on LinkedIn soit's it's Mark Hawks inth funnel that that's the name

1:04:01

of the company and our website's inth funnel. comom butplease do connect with me on LinkedIn let me know that you're

1:04:07

heard from us you know here on Damon's podcast but if you'vegot a question or two we'd love to answer them all right

1:04:14

so listeners what I would like you to do and for those ofyou watching YouTube I'd like you to think of a friend of

1:04:20

yours who's either in sales or maybe curious about gettinginto sales or even somebody who's a a sales leader who's

1:04:26

maybe overwhelmed and share with them this episode please dothat and then go out and purchase Mark's book there will

1:04:33

be a link in our show notes and until next time everybodystay curious keep

1:04:38

learning and have a great day I will become the leader thatI was called to be if I do that on a fitness journey I

1:04:45

will live a longer life and be able to play basketball withmy grandchildren if

1:04:50

I live that

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