173: The 80% Rule: How Leaders Can Overcome Fear, Stress, and Self-Doubt | Derek Sloan

Release Date: 

June 5, 2025

Release Date: May 29

Why does stress feel so normal in the workplace? Why does our mind default to the worst case scenario? And what’s the cost of this being our normal day to day life?

In this episode, Damon sits down with Derek Sloan, who’s a licensed therapist, executive coach, and founder of Abridge Leadership to explore why so many professionals silently battle negativity and self-doubt, and what leaders can do to break the cycle.

Whether you're navigating organizational change, dealing with anxious thoughts, or trying to model vulnerability in a remote workplace, this episode offers practical tools backed by psychology and made for the real world.

What You’ll Learn:

  • What The 80% Rule is—and how it can transform how you lead
  • The hidden cost of “normalized” workplace stress
  • Why vulnerability is a leadership superpower (when done right)
  • The difference between confidence and self-efficacy
  • How to spot fear-based thinking on your team
  • Practical ways leaders can create clarity, safety, and connection
  • And so much more!

In This Episode:

  • 00:21 – Why our brains default to negativity (60,000 thoughts, 80% negative)
  • 01:53 – The thought-emotion-behavior chain: how negativity spreads
  • 03:42 – What happens when dysfunction is normalized at work
  • 05:45 – Breaking down The 80% Rule (3 surprising stats)
  • 09:00 – Addressing real pain vs. future-focused fear
  • 10:25 – The traps leaders fall into under stress
  • 12:23 – A case study: when a promotion becomes a source of burnout
  • 16:05 – What leaders can do during times of uncertainty
  • 18:45 – The power of focusing on controllables
  • 19:24 – 3 controllables: showing up as your best, staying hopeful, being transparent
  • 22:30 – Why vulnerability matters more than ever
  • 25:15 – Healthy vs. unhealthy vulnerability: where leaders get it wrong
  • 29:09 – Understanding fear: how our brains exaggerate the future
  • 33:27 – Self-efficacy vs. confidence—and why both matter
  • 36:05 – How to give better feedback (that actually develops talent)
  • 39:14 – Recognizing negativity loops in your team
  • 41:39 – Why listening—not fixing—is your leadership edge
  • 44:00 – The post-COVID shift: employees expect to be cared for
  • 45:32 – Can remote work ever match in-person connection?
  • 48:21 – Why loneliness is a hidden workplace epidemic
  • 50:15 – Final takeaway: Take inventory. Where are you now—and how long have you been there?

About the Guest:

Derek Sloan is a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor (LPCC), Certified Clinical Trauma Professional (CCTP), and National Certified Counselor (NCC), He has experience in providing mental health and behavioral health services to individuals, couples, and groups. He founded and continues to operate a private practice in Kentucky.

Derek is also a Certified Executive Coach and has a passion for leadership development. This has been a lifelong pursuit through his graduate degree in organizational leadership, building businesses, and leadership coaching/consulting. He works with executive leaders in top-level and industry-leading organizations, helping them enhance their emotional intelligence, communication skills, and decision-making abilities. His mission is to help organizations achieve their goals by prioritizing both leadership and mental health.

Resources Referenced:

Want to Learn More?:  

Podcast Contact Information:  

Show transcript
Close transcript

Transcript

0:00

why does stress feel so normal at work why do our minds always jump to the

0:05

worst case scenario all the time and what's it doing to our teams to ourselves when this becomes our new

0:12

normal welcome to the Learn It All Podcast the show for today's leaders who want to get ahead and stay ahead because

0:18

we believe great leaders aren't born or made they're always in the making i'm your host Damon Lebby two-time

0:24

best-selling author and CEO of Learn It a live learning platform that has helped upskill over two million people over the

0:31

past three decades today's guest is Derek Sloan a licensed therapist

0:36

executive coach and he's a founder of a bridge leadership we need to be reminding ourselves and reminding those

0:42

around us of hey you're you're in your position for a reasonit wasn't happen

0:47

stance we didn't draw a random name out of the hat and putyou in the role it's no it's like you you can handle what

0:54

you're facing now and then also future challenges and so Ithink the way we talk to ourselves and the way we coach

1:00

our team we need to to be cultivating self-efficacy todayDerek and I will

1:06

talk about how we have over 60,000 thoughts a day and mostof them are negative what the 80% rule is and how it

1:14

can transform how you lead the real cost of normalizing workplace stress why

1:19

vulnerability is a leadership superpower when it's doneright and how to spot

1:25

fear-based thinking on your team studies have shown that wehave about 60,000 thoughts a day and most of them are

1:31

negative why is our brain wired that way a lot of thoughts around this one is

1:37

this idea you may have heard of it before with negativity bias and you hear that and you're like "Ooh that seems

1:43

dark and gloomy." Um and the reality is of that of that60,000 number I'm more

1:49

shocked by the number that goes along with it that's 48,000of that is

1:55

negative so 60,000 thoughts a day 48,000 being negative umand so that shows you

2:01

where the scales are kind of tipped tipped toward the negative and there's people who would say that that's you

2:07

know kind of like a an evolutionary part of of of our our genetic makeup to where

2:13

it's all about preservation right it's like how do we how doI keep my human alive you know it's like looking at

2:20

everything as if it's going to be be bad because it makes usmore cautious that makes us take a little bit more time to

2:27

make a decision to go this way or that way if we're takinginto account hey there could be potential danger there or

2:32

what could that lead to and our mind is a lot of times to our detriment about

2:37

four or five steps ahead and it's already determined that hey at the end of that road is a bear so let's just not

2:43

even open the fence to start going down that road and so people start kind of walking in this space of anxiety and

2:51

stress and again that's that that's I think that's a goodway to think about it it's it's our brain trying to help us

2:57

but it's not always helpful these days leaders I would saynow more than ever are under a lot of pressure you know we

3:04

live in times of uncertainty i like to call it the post-rustworld so how does

3:09

having a flood of negative thoughts like this impact howthey show up both for themselves and for their teams it'd be

3:15

one thing if negative thoughts stayed as negative thoughts iyou know I think about it as like a lot of times our

3:21

thoughts are it's the it's the starting point you know likeoften times you and I if you

3:28

think about like what's the most recent negative thoughtthat you've had once you pinpoint that or decide that um

3:35

there's probably some then negative emotions that popped upthat wasn't out

3:40

of nowhere it's because oh this negative thought here'shere's here's some emotions that go along with that and

3:46

then the emotions show Oh well here's some behaviors thatfollow through with that sequence of the

3:51

negative thought the negative emotion the negative behaviorand so if you think about it in terms of even just leadership or leading a teamif you're

3:58

in a bad headsp space you know that's going to show up inyour emotions someone walks in your office

4:03

unexpectedly you've kind of got your agenda you might lashout you may say something that if if you weren't in that

4:10

negative headsp space you may have responded differently andso you can just see this kind of showing up in

4:16

thoughts emotions and behaviors and I think that's reallywhere it gets challenging because you're going to have

4:22

ample opportunities um in a workplace that's under highpressure for that just to kind of start to be normalized and

4:30

not challenged and it's just like that that's a rough spotto be in unless we kind of can disrupt that sequence give

4:36

me an example of of having a situation where it's beingnormalized and not challenged yeah I think in an

4:42

organization where um I I've worked with organizations wherethere's just been a very negative leader to where it wasn't

4:49

just a bad day it was just like a hey this this person's bitthey've always been that way and so you get people in

4:56

the organization who just dismiss it in a way of like wellclassic Billy that's

5:02

just who Billy is that's what Billy does and it's almostlike this deal with it

5:07

that's just who they are it's normal they're never goingthey're always going to be that way and so I think sometimes

5:13

people withhold feedback um they keep people in positionstoo long and then if

5:22

Billy's in a high level of leadership there's a lot ofeyeballs on Billy who want to be where Billy is in the

5:28

organization they want to get promoted they want to advanceand now it becomes modeled to where oh that's what that's

5:34

what being a leader in this organization must look like sotherefore I don't have to keep my negative thoughts emotions

5:40

behaviors in check because Billy doesn't keep his thoughtsemotions behaviors in check and so I think that the unhealthy

5:47

part of it just gets so the dysfunction gets normalized andnot challenged and accepted and that's a detriment not only

5:53

to Billy but then also to everyone in the organization whocomes in contact with Billy sorry for anybody named Billy

6:01

who I'm picking on no it it it kind of sounds like a doomloop if you think about it uh and and what it does to

6:07

culture because yeah first people have to deal with Billyand this is how Billy always is right and and Billy's a senior

6:13

leader and people aspire perhaps to be a senior leader andthey feel like okay

6:20

especially if they haven't been a lot of other organizationsthis is this is what it takes to be a senior leader and so

6:25

they model the behavior that Billy has and it just is adownward spiral and

6:31

definitely impacts the uh organization's culture now Derekyou've created

6:36

something that you call the 80% rule um can you break thatdown for us the 80% rule and where does it come from yeah it

6:44

comes from just a way of of of calling out what's happeningand and naming

6:50

what's happening and so it's really um stoops back into whatyou first talked about with you know 60,000 thoughts in a

6:57

day 80% of those are negative so 48,000 thoughts in a daybeing negative um just

7:05

one an awareness around that it it's hard to really changesomething if there's not an awareness first and so

7:11

just recognizing this is this is normal you're not your yourbrain isn't broken

7:17

your brain's doing what everyone in society is doing even ifyou think about the most optimistic person you've ever

7:23

met I had this teacher in high school who every time you sawher she's bubbly she's cheering former cheerleader and

7:29

she's 40 years later and I think she still thinks she's acheerleader over-the-top optimistic we could say

7:36

about her hm maybe she only has 42,000 negative thoughts ofher 80,000 but it's

7:43

still or of her 60,000 and so it it's still a enormousnumber even for the

7:50

most optimistic people and so one just recognizing everyoneacross the spectrum from the most depressive sad miserable

7:57

type the Eors of the world to the most optimistic they theyhave this happening

8:04

and so that's the first 80% rule there's actually three 80%numbers I'm going to give you the second is that you know 80%

8:12

of the fears never happen so if this if this is somethingyou're concerned about

8:18

statistically it's actually it's actually higher more recentresearch has shown that it's even higher than 80% um

8:25

but more than 80% of the time it doesn't even remotelyhappen and I know that's

8:31

been true for me has that been true for you things it hasbeen true for me yeah

8:37

things that things that you kind of have a concern aboutjust doesn't pan out um and so in that moment again like real

8:45

time it's reminding yourself of like okay this there's ahigh likelihood that this worst case scenario where my

8:51

brain's taking this four or five steps ahead isn't you knowit's departed from reality it's it's not realistic and then

8:58

the last um number is you know 80% of the time actuallysituations turn out

9:03

better than expected and so if you think about even evenwhen

9:08

of the 20% of the time something negative does happen 80% of

9:15

that 20% goes better than expected so what I hear you sayingis that there's

9:20

really three 80% rules so first of all 80% of all ourthoughts are negative and

9:26

out of those 80% of negative thoughts most of the time theydon't even happen

9:32

right so we're worrying about things that will never evenoccur and then the third one is even if they do happen

9:38

they're not as bad as what we made them out to be correct isthat about right you nailed it so Derek if I'm a listener

9:46

today and I'm saying "Hey you know what well great butyou know what the worst case scenario did pan out for me so I'm

9:53

not buying this." How do you help that individualabsolutely yeah and I think I

9:59

think there is a reality where bad stuff does happen thisisn't um this approach

10:05

is isn't toxic positivity to where it's like I'm you know nonegativity welcome

10:12

i I I like to think of it as hey there's there's absolutelypainful parts of that which is part of the human experience

10:19

what what getting this um where where this can impact us iswe start to then

10:24

have a negative experience and therefore we think movingforward this is what my

10:31

new norm is which again goes back to affecting everyeverything we filter

10:37

everything through that and actually it starts to starts tohappen with a cognitive distortion called mental

10:44

filtering and so we have a negative experience therefore welet that play

10:49

out and it's almost like this fortune telling anything elsemoving forward is bad and so um that's what we want to

10:56

stop we don't want to we don't want to say "No you lostsomebody that's not negative." That's terrible that's that's

11:03

that's horrible that is that is a real reality and so wewant to we want to

11:08

recognize things when they are painful but we want to beable to recognize when sometimes our brain's working against us

11:15

in and labeling something as negative when in actuality itit it may not be

11:20

what are some of the biggest traps that leaders fall intowhen they got get themselves caught in negative thought

11:26

patterns let's say they get a text from from a boss hey canwe chat the classic

11:32

case example i know where my mind has gone in the past whenI've gotten that it's like what I'm running through what

11:38

did I do this week what conversation did I have what did Ido that because I'm definitely getting fired you know it's

11:44

like I I ran five steps ahead and it wasn't anything thatwas going to be a

11:50

positive other side of that conversation it was all negativeand so I think that that's one thing of if you feel yourself

11:56

having these patterns of anxiousness and stress you knowstress in the workplace is so normalized it's like when's the

12:04

last time we just said like why am I stressed you know whatwhat what's

12:09

causing this stress versus just I'm overwhelmed i'm stressedthat's part of working that's part of that's part of

12:15

life i think just questioning and challenging that becausesometimes some of those stressful things like maybe the

12:21

boss wants to give you a promotion or talk about somethingactually positive um and you're just it's eating away at

12:28

you for no reason and so in in the workplace like I thinklike everybody should look at not only am I stressed

12:35

because everyone's going to say yes to that take it a stepfurther and say "What specifically am I stressed about?"

12:41

Make a list of it okay is any of that anchored in reality oris it falling

12:47

into this 80% number that's it's likely not going to happenit's going to go better than expected do you have I want

12:53

to see if we could tie it back to maybe a real world exampleof working with a customer do do you have any examples of

13:00

working with somebody where they said "Hey Derek thisis going on." There was a situation in in an organization in the

13:06

banking world that I that I work with and there was a leader

13:12

who overwhelmed with stress and and and when unpacking it itwasn't that it

13:19

wasn't that they were they were doing something wrong theorganization had promoted them to where they weren't a

13:26

good fit for their new role okay see that a lot don't weyeah you're you're

13:31

you're promoting conversation around that promoted toincompetence right it's like you were good at X therefore you've

13:37

got to be great at Y it's like okay so it was that kind ofsituation but this

13:43

this this leader was taking it so personal you know I'm it'sa me issue

13:49

it's I'm not trying hard enough when they were excelling intheir previous

13:55

role but but now they're in the new role and they're feelingthat incompetence and it's it's really it was a it was a

14:01

poor decision on the organization standpoint but whenunpacking the stress

14:06

with that leader able to identify hey this isn't somethingthat you can do differently you're not a good fit for

14:13

this role in this particular season of the organization sowhenever the shift was made you know

14:20

there was a new role for this this uh this leader wasn't ademotion it was it was hey here here's

14:28

here's the characteristics of this new role that line up alot more close to to where you were excelling before and but

14:35

I but I think those kind of things can definitely feel likea demotion if if it

14:40

wasn't unpacked and recognized that hey this the stress thatyou're feeling wasn't you you know had that leader

14:46

taken that on and just played that out in their head andkind of sat with that and we didn't talk about it one if they

14:52

were continuing in that role talk about burnout talk aboutmisery talk about just not wanting to be at work or you

15:00

know leaving altogether getting fired whatever I think justnaming being able to identify where the the

15:06

root of the stresses behind it and and depersonalizingbecause all of us are

15:11

very critical of ourselves and so I think that that's wherethis 80% can really help us pinpoint where's where

15:17

should the stress be coming from or should be coming from ilike what you said that we're very critical of

15:23

ourselves and if you think about it we're much more criticalof ourselves than we are of others right we would

15:30

never in a million years think of saying the thing tosomebody else that we say to say it's like totally I would feel

15:36

like at least I hope not yeah i would feel like I needed tobe locked up you know it's like the cruelty of that but

15:43

we take it and we've gotten so used to it right and and it'sit's one of those

15:49

things to where we go there very quickly especially if we'rein a season

15:54

or that's that's had some perpetual hardship or challengesor um there's a

15:59

lot of physiological and psychological reasons for that toowe can talk about if you want the question I have for you

16:06

is I want to look at it from like an employees perspectivesay that you're

16:11

you're at this organization and you're looking around andyou know the stock market's going down there's been layoffs

16:18

at different uh organizations and there's a lot ofuncertainty and you're

16:23

not hearing you know a lot from your leadership there's nota lot of communication of what's going on so

16:28

you're always looking at what's right around the cornerright um and you're making up things maybe even in your mind

16:36

what can leaders do to help alleviate some of that stressand uncertainty that

16:42

uh their team members have going on it is very important torecognize what what

16:49

is what is within your realm to change

16:55

and there is yes people above us in an organization butthose people are not

17:01

infallible they have challenges they have hardships theyhave poor

17:06

communication skills um and I could sit there and blame andsay you know if they

17:12

would get this in order then I would be in a better spot andthe part of that is

17:20

you're you're just reminding yourself that you're stuck youknow because I'm I'm sitting here waiting on them to

17:25

provide something so then therefore I can be in a betterspot or then therefore I could take a next step so I

17:31

would just say if you could catch yourself or if you findyourself in that moment right now as a leader make make a list what what is

17:38

within my realm of change and what is not the things thatare outside of your

17:44

realm of change chances are you're spending a lot of timeenergy griping

17:49

moaning stress over those things and it and the and and whatyou're doing to

17:54

your brain is you think you're actually addressing somethingproductive because I'm talking about it to my spouse or I'm

18:00

talking about it with a co-orker it's like I'm talking aboutthe dysfunction or talking about what I need but I

18:06

haven't done anything to get me closer to that and so thatthe controllable side of your list if you have the

18:12

uncontrollable and the controllable side those are thethings giving feedback you know maybe

18:19

there is something within my role that I could do be moreefficient at that I could take this step or that step and

18:25

and I know of situations to where I've challenged leaders todo that of like hey let's all that energy you're you're

18:31

throwing out there in a shotgun approach and all thesedifferent areas what if we got laser focused on your your list of

18:37

controllables of things that you you could change and whatthat tends to do

18:42

it starts to one feel like progress momentum it it makesthose hard days more tolerable i

18:50

I've seen leaders who they're knocking their controllablelist out of the park the organization the leaders in the

18:56

exact same spot but yet they have this feeling of hey I'mI'm I'm actually

19:02

doing something and I'm being proactive i'm I'm I'm takingtaking some initiative here and that really does

19:08

satisfy within us this there's a lot that boxes that checkpsychologically you know autonomy you know competency um

19:17

that that are that are definitely major motivators for usand so we can actually

19:23

be in a better spot even if the organization doesn't changeor that leader is not ready to change and so but but I do think that list of

19:29

uncontrollables and controllables and then making an activechoice to spend your energy on what you can control is

19:35

it could be a very important step for people i mean one ofthe greatest books of all time is Victor Frankle's In Search of Meaning ManSearch for Meaning

19:42

yeah man Search for Meaning and I'll put a link in the shownotes but talk about uncontrollables and controllables you

19:48

know him at the concentration camp um can you share with uslet's say three

19:55

controllables am I showing up at my best and I think thatthat's very loaded i

20:02

think that's a there's a physical health component theresleep rest am I am I

20:08

caring for myself uh are all the ingredients there when Iarrive at work

20:13

to be able to do the task at hand if I show up hungry I knowthat that may seem

20:19

like a trivial example if I show up lack of sleep that'sgoing to show up in my productivity so I think one am I am I am

20:25

I showing up at my best um am I showing up hopeful am Igoing in on the drive to

20:32

work am I telling myself another Tuesday it's going to belike every other Tuesday um and that's when I talked

20:38

earlier about mental filtering if if you decide it's goingto be a terrible day

20:44

guess what terrible day you're going to find all theevidence in the world for

20:49

it being a terrible day um kind of back to what we talkedabout before of like if you allow that thought to sit the

20:56

emotion's going to follow the behavior is going to followyou're actually going to if you show up and here's the wild

21:01

thing uh psychologically if I show up at work and I'vedecided it's a terrible

21:06

day and I start to see struggle to find evidence for itbeing a terrible day

21:11

guess what i may I may have some behaviors that create aterrible day

21:17

because I' I need to I need this thing to all be inalignment and I need to make I've already decided what it was

21:23

going to be therefore I'm going to kind of uh create thatreality um so yeah am I am I showing up at my best am I

21:30

showing up hopeful so let's start with you said am I showingup as my best am I

21:35

hopeful a third one I've seen to help alleviate some of thestress and

21:41

uncertainty is just making sure that you're communicatingand being as transparent as possible

21:48

and I bring that up because I I've had situations where umteam members have

21:53

come to me uh they felt uh you know psychologically safeenough to say hey

21:58

Damon I don't feel like we know enough about what's going onaround here you know what are our numbers at you know

22:04

what's the status of this project and that's one thingthat's that's in the control of the leaders is that they can

22:11

share and communicate uh and be as transparent as possibleand when people

22:16

have an understanding of what's going on and they're notbehind the scenes making things up in their mind like we talked

22:22

about I definitely think that that has a big impact as yousaid that the word that floods my mind is is the

22:28

vulnerability part you know it's like what's a what is a

22:34

healthy amount of vulnerability um and that can go a lot ofdifferent ways that

22:40

can hey I need to let my leader know that I'm struggling orI'm confused or that I have questions or I don't know

22:46

the direction um maybe the change management side of thingswas didn't

22:51

turn out as as as well as the consultant promised umwhatever it might be like there's a there there's definitely um

22:58

the vulnerability piece and and and I would say if you're aleader so let's say that that it's what is the

23:05

controllable of someone or organization that has peopleunder them that they're that report to them extremely important

23:12

for you to have vulnerability with them time and time againpeople are saying I

23:17

need more clarity on what my role is and I want to see morevulnerability from my

23:22

leader it's like time and time again that shows up and sohaving uh having that as a priority as top of

23:30

mind um which goes against a lot of work cultures to wherevulnerability is is

23:36

you raising your hand saying you can't do your job i wasgoing to say why do you think vulnerability is showing up as

23:43

far as what people want to see from their leader becausethey have their own struggles every leader has their own

23:49

struggles and they it's comforting when you see other peoplein the same boat

23:54

you know like early on so one of my uh I have a I have aprivate practice for for

24:00

therapy and so one it through co talk about a wild a wildseason what I noticed early on with some

24:07

of my um some of my you know clients that were anxietyridden it early on in

24:16

COVID I saw this in numer numerous numerous clients thatthey

24:23

actually their anxiety lessened their mood improved

24:29

wasn't for everybody but it was enough to where it made mepause and and start to really consider some things and evaluate and and andreally what it was

24:36

is the outside world started to match their internal worldthe chaos they were seeing the the

24:44

challenges people uncertainty all those things that they'vehad their whole life is now they got to visually see it out

24:50

there and it made them feel a bit more normal isn't thatwild because it wasn't just them who was experiencing it it

24:56

wasn't just them they didn't feel isolated alone weirdbroken so many people so many people feel like "What's

25:03

wrong you know what am I doing wrong what's wrong with mei've got to hide it i've got to you know it takes a lot of

25:08

energy to preserve an image we're trying to portray."And so I ju and so I think the vulnerability part I think it

25:14

normalizes people's experience and there's been a lot ofpeople who've worked in the corporate setting

25:20

and vulnerability is the last thing they saw modeled at thetop you know and uh

25:26

and that's and that's I think that's a big reason for it ithink people want to uh feel like

25:33

what man if I'm being led by someone I I'll say it this wayi talk about this

25:38

quite a bit but it's when you're thinking about being led by

25:44

someone it's or or when you're thinking about leadingsomeone i'll say it that way so I'll pause if we want to edit

25:50

this so when you're thinking about leading someone I love

25:56

this i I love this way of thinking about it like I I want toI want to show them

26:02

enough vulnerability to show them that I'm I'm flesh andblood that I bleed like

26:09

them i do not want to paint this picture that I'm bleedingout you know it's like how do I give

26:15

them enough vulnerability to show that I'm human but notthat I'm over here

26:22

about to take my last breath or that I'm drowning and I'veseen that's a spectrum i've been in meetings where people went

26:29

way in on vulnerability and it was incredibly awkward notthe time share an example can can

26:35

can you can you share a a PG-13 example yeah yeah redactinga lot of names and

26:42

companies all that yeah just I mean talking about maritalfights you know like I just got out of the car and Nancy

26:50

you wouldn't and and people were just like I thought we werehere to talk about Q1 like Q1 budget you know it's

26:58

it's it's that level of hey that's a different conversationthan saying hey some stuff happened at home you know I'm

27:05

going to ask Ted if you can jump in i'm trying to get mymind you know kind of shifted into work mode because I just

27:12

kind of came out of a hard conversation at the house okaythat and maybe for some people that's even more vulnerable

27:18

than they want to be but that feels very different thangoing all in and venting in that space um but but but that's a

27:24

big part i think there does need to be a healthy amount ofvulnerability and as a leader you really need to be mindful of

27:30

who's on the receiving end of my vulnerability is it someonewho they just they're going through a hardship

27:37

and I know that and all of a sudden I'm going to dump mystuff on them and they can't even handle their own stuff right now for whateverreason like we really

27:43

need to to think about who the audience is with this but allthose disclaimers

27:48

vulnerability is worth figuring out because people aredesperate to see that what I hear you saying is that

27:55

vulnerability is important because one people want to be ledby people who are

28:00

authentic and genuine number two it's kind of a balancewhere you want to be

28:06

vulnerable but also confident so people don't want to seeyou don't want to look like you're bleeding out but you also want to look likethat you're open to

28:12

sharing that you don't have all the answers figured out andthree it also takes a level of uh emotional maturity

28:19

you know I mean it's one thing saying "Hey I've gotsome issues at home can you please take this?" And it's another one ofjust going way too deep on the

28:27

conversation around it so I totally agree with you on that iwant to switch gears kind of going back to fear and

28:33

anxiety and you talk about how it comes out in fourdifferent categories can you

28:39

walk us through what those four different categories are inregard to fear and anxiety when it comes to fear and

28:45

anxiety often times what what happens with with all of usyou know the brain

28:52

gets five steps ahead it's going to the extreme forself-preservation

28:58

you know it's it's chasing self-preservation and in doing

29:05

that it's making whatever that future fear the boogeyman thebear the the

29:12

thing that we're stressed about it's making it so big andscary because it's

29:17

really trying to get us to take note of it hey around thecorner here it comes you know it's coming and so that starts

29:25

the the the future fear starts to well up in us in thepresent you know it's

29:31

like this this thing that that's four weeks down the roadone week the next day it's like all of a sudden now I'm my

29:38

stomach's a little off my legs are getting a little wobblyum and it it it's trying to really get our attention

29:45

and so I'll give you a great example i was uh I'm inKentucky and when I was when I was younger we would go to Kings

29:51

Island which was in Cincinnati an amusement park and thereis an Eiffel Tower at Kings Island and it's not the

29:58

Eiffel Tower or the height of it i don't remember how tallit is it's tall enough

30:03

to where I don't love heights every time I get I'm sure if I

30:09

went back today and I get on that elevator it's like acouple minutes you know up to the

30:14

top i'm at ground level i step on the elevator guess what mylegs get a little

30:19

wobbly i'm still on the ground i'm three feet from when mylegs weren't wobbly before I got on the elevator but I'm

30:26

going up the elevator my legs are I need to I'm tellingmyself don't buckle your knees you know you're the doors open now

30:34

i'm getting I mean I'm already clammy my legs are wobbly i'm15 feet from the

30:40

rail you know and there's a giant fence and a cage andthere's no way I could exit this thing but I still my body is

30:47

screaming that I'm in danger you know and so I before I'mever to the edge of

30:53

that but all of my my brain for self-preservation reasonsmade that show

30:59

up in the present and really tried to get my attention andso this connection

31:05

between the big bad scary thing being a reality it it's it's

31:11

really I I say it this way it's like our brain makes ourfear big and it makes

31:19

our capacity small so the divide between what I'm about toface and my skill set

31:26

my intelligence my ability to handle it is diminished so Imake this thing huge

31:32

this monster big and me small when reality is probably herei actually have experiences i've

31:39

gone up that elevator before i've lived to tell the tale ofgoing to the top of the King's Island Eiffel Tower many

31:45

times and so I have experience I have repetitions I haveexper you know things I've gone through that have shown that I

31:52

can do it and so oftent times what what's helpful for peopleis remembering past experiences and also reminding

32:00

yourself hey there's a high likelihood that that's not a bigbad scary monster like you're telling yourself that it is

32:05

and so trying to kind of pull that back into a morerealistic picture of what's

32:10

going on uh I think is very important so from a leadershipperspective I guess you could use the example of it's a

32:17

situation where a leader lacks belief in themselves rightbecause it's this huge

32:22

thing and I'm the small and I'm the small and I you know I'mnot able to handle this um when they don't feel like

32:28

they're enough or they think they can't handle something infront of them how does that impact this idea of

32:34

self-efficacy you know it it's really you know psychologistAlbert

32:40

Bandura years ago in the 20th century kind of coined thatand researched that

32:45

extensively um it's I I would say you know

32:51

self-efficacy is this belief in self that there's something

32:56

that I'm going to face in the future a future role that Imay be promoted into

33:03

a challenge a new client a new project and this idea ofself-efficacy is hey I

33:11

have I may not have the answer to complete that projectright now or to to

33:18

you know uh accomplish said task self-efficacy is saying butI have

33:24

the history a proven track record to be able to do that ihave a network of people i

33:31

have co-workers who have my back i have a boss who has myback um I'm going to be able to figure out what the answer is

33:38

or how to navigate that situation and again it's anaspiration to to think

33:44

through and and to recognize because it some people arehandicapped

33:49

by this fear by this anxiety to where they're so worriedabout the project itself again that they've forgotten

33:56

about their own history and and so I think it is a we needto be reminding

34:02

ourselves and reminding those around us of of hey you'reyou're in your position

34:07

for a reason it wasn't happen stance we didn't draw a randomname out of the hat and put you in the role it's no it's

34:13

like you you can handle what you're facing now and then alsofuture

34:18

challenges and so I think the way we talk to ourselves andthe way we coach our team we need to to be cultivating

34:25

self-efficacy it's such an important part of of people's

34:30

um well-being in the workplace so how can leaders either forthemselves or for

34:36

their teams help develop more self-e efficacy so some peoplemay be hearing e

34:41

efficacy and they're like one that's a strange word we don'tuse every day and it's hard to say yeah like there's a lot

34:47

of a lot going on there and I'm from the south and so Istruggle with words anyway so with

34:55

self-efficacy I want I I think it is important if we cantake a little bit of time to delineate that from

35:02

self-confidence they're two different things you knowself-confidence is you know I am I am

35:12

talented self that's self-confidence self-efficacy is I amtalented at public

35:19

speaking it has a direction and so when you think about the

35:24

importance both are important it's important for people toknow who they are and what they're good you know like I am talented like thatkind of outlook

35:32

on yourself like I have skills I have ability but we theself-efficacy is a

35:38

step further it's but what are you gifted in what are youtalented at and

35:44

so how many times have you been in a coaching conversationwhether it's uh

35:50

you know an annual review a great way to think about thisfor

35:56

leaders the feedback that we give if someone's doing a goodjob a lot of

36:01

times we we build their confidence we say "Hey lastyear you did you did

36:06

phenomenal you did a you did such a good job." and paton the back and they're

36:12

out the door and they're like "Okay but that felt kindof shallow what was I good at?" And so being able to take it a

36:18

step further into efficacy is saying "Hey man the howquickly you turned

36:24

around that project." And that was phenomenal thatallowed X to happen Y to

36:30

happen that allowed him to do that her to do that like thatwas amazing you're

36:36

speaking into efficacy there and so as a leader I think youwant to be mindful of

36:41

like the words that you choose am I am I abbreviating thebenefit you know or

36:49

shortening the the impact of my coaching with somebody byjust building someone's

36:54

confidence or am I actually building that efficacy andthat's going to be

37:00

that's going to be a step further it's going to take moreintentionality but it's going to have a much much deeper impact to that leaderthat you're

37:06

leading i hear that sometimes around feedback too rightwhere you can't just say "Hey you did a good job," but you

37:12

want to say "You did a good job at this." Becausethat that comes across as like you said less shallow and deeper

37:18

and more specific yep and I've and I've heard leaders getoffended

37:23

by I was told I did a good job and they're bothered by thatthey're like because I'm I'm left there with more

37:30

questions or they I they their thing is "Yeah I'm aboutto go to annual you know I've got my annual meeting coming up

37:36

they were going to pat me on the back and said I did a goodjob i hate when they do that and it's so funny when you

37:41

think about that that leader is thinking I just instilledconfidence and this

37:46

wonderful meeting and they walk away from it but that thethe person on the receiving end of that like you said just

37:52

feels a little shallow or off and so I think it's worth allof us um speaking

37:58

to more specifics uh and it shows as a leader that we'rewatching that we're observing because it took energy and

38:04

effort to produce what that leader produced and if me astheir leader can name it it shows that it was worth all

38:12

the time energy and investment on their part to do it yeahbecause you're you're actually listening to what's going on and and sharingfeedback on that now as

38:20

far as watching and listening as a leader what can they doto help recognize when their team are going

38:28

through negative negativity loops or fear-based behavior ihad a friend one time and he says it this way he's in

38:35

he's in kind of a m materials industry for for

38:41

construction and I love this it was I think a mentor of hiswould say this all the time you know as a leader if I'm if

38:49

I think something's off and instead of making assumptions

38:56

adopting the posture of listen to my people they'll tell meeverything I need to hear listen to my people they'll tell

39:03

me everything I need to hear and it's like I think thosedata points are all around us and I think as a leader it's

39:09

being very intentional with you know when you're in aconversation what's being said what's

39:15

not being said adopting curiosity with that you know havinghaving questions

39:21

and space for to to for people to kind of pull out of theirday-to-day and just process a little bit you know doing that

39:27

in a group setting with a skilled facilitator is a is a verypowerful

39:32

experience when you have a group of people who aremission-minded they're in alignment

39:38

there but they're going through some challenges and maybethey don't know how to verbalize it or um man if getting in

39:44

a space to where you can have that dialogue carved out intonot asking you

39:50

to stay after work today we're going to prioritize that aspart of our time together because I we the organization

39:56

cares about you and your well-being it's having having timeto do that in curiosity just just be in a listening

40:03

posture and don't make those assumptions as a leader we wantto fix it we don't want our people to hurt if you're a good leader you don'twant your people to

40:10

hurt if you do want them to hurt and you're in Kentucky orFlorida contact me

40:15

and we can talk through counseling options might have someissues there i say that jokingly but but

40:21

having having this this this posture of curiosity and andand carving out

40:27

intentional space to listen well as a leader and and and notjump to conclusions or assumptions i had a a

40:34

great guest on Gary Ridge uh the famous CEO for WD40 andthat was one of the

40:40

first things that he talked about i guess there's some greatquote I think from the Daly Lama about if you can't

40:45

help people at least make sure that you're not hurting themand that's one of the things that he talked about was

40:51

just really caring for your people let's talk a little bitDerek about the work you do what's your target customer and

40:58

how do you help them it's a great question yeah so my targetcustomer are

41:04

uh are leaders who have a desire to

41:10

enhance their culture but maybe need some tools to be ableto do that like where do I start what do I look for how

41:17

do I how do I move the needle on this our company's beenaround decades and decades and we're we're trying to

41:23

elevate our culture um that that is that's where the workthat that that we

41:29

do shines because we come in from a standpoint with reallypeople at the forefront of of everything we do from

41:35

from understanding of psychology understanding of of of whatmotivates people um how to help people get out of

41:42

their own way like the tools and the frameworks that we thatwe talk about um are all evidence-based and so we bring

41:49

that into the workplace uh and and that's that's that'swhere uh it's it's

41:54

an involved everyone in the everyone in that's involved youknow it's not just

42:00

for this section of the organization it's like hey if we'regoing to if we're going to move the needle on on this it's

42:06

it's top down and so we we that that would be where where Ifocus and also

42:11

have a you know so the leadership companies called a bridgeleadership and it's it's pulling those worlds of mental

42:19

health and psychology into organizational leadershiptogether and when I show up at organization I'm not

42:25

showing up as a therapist i'm showing up as a executiveleader consultant that

42:30

has that in his background to pull from to like I saidbefore understanding people but I still do a lot of clinical

42:38

work too uh with with a private practice that I run and leadwhat are some of the biggest challenges that you're seeing um

42:45

that come across with the customers you're working with fiveten years ago there was this trend of of of people

42:54

showing up to the workplace and there wasn't as strong of anexpectation on

42:59

the workplace to provide some some psychological needs

43:04

that needed to be met there wasn't a language as much of alanguage for it i

43:10

think on the other side of COVID organizations had to reallytake

43:15

into account hey what are we what are we doing for ourpeople and I do think the education around it the um there's a lot

43:23

of reasons but people are now showing up to work with anexpectation not just for a paycheck but to be cared for in a much

43:30

stronger way and so that's been a really interesting shift

43:35

that from the hats that I wear I love I love to see and Ithink it is important um for a lot of reasons but I but I do

43:43

think the expectation of the employee has put a lot morepressure on organizations to get this right and

43:50

they're not as patient for an organization to get it rightthe paycheck's not always going to keep them

43:55

and speaking of co times you know we've we've moved to thisremote hybrid um

44:02

work environment and these days I believe the Gallup pollshowed that we're only at like a 30% uh employee

44:09

engagement which is super low and I think part of that hasto do with loneliness um and and being remote but I

44:17

want to kind of put you on the spot i mean what do you thinkdo you think that we can be as effective working remote

44:22

and hybrid or do you think that people's engagement levelswould go up and their mental well-being would be better if

44:28

they were back in the office more often with other peopleand not lonely or just

44:34

by themselves sitting at home in their pajamas working it'sprobably a little bit industry specific um but I think in

44:41

a in a general sense u loneliness is the unspoken epidemicof the world right now

44:48

you know especially in our society like loneliness is amajor uh and I and I do

44:53

think isolation is a big part of that i think um for forpeople with certain

45:00

challenges whether it be to a diagnosible level or not youknow

45:06

um working at home in isolation and staying in your pajamasand and staying in your room with the the blinds pulled

45:12

like that's that is not helpful that's just not helpful it'sit's it's um it

45:18

may feel nice in the moment but but long term that's notthat's not helping them

45:24

um so I would I definitely think there's creative waysthrough technology and

45:29

intentionality on employers part to you can have communitywithout having to

45:35

have in person all the time you know like the hybrid optionsand it does take a lot more creativity and

45:42

experimentation on an organization's part if if you don'thave people showing up every day um but yeah I think I think

45:49

depending on I think some roles for some people

45:54

are going to be way more challenging if they're not rubbingshoulders with other people there was a young lady who worked

46:00

for me who is phenomenal for uh several years and um shemoved on and we still

46:07

get along really well and she's a millennial and she reallywas looking

46:12

for an opportunity to learn it is hybrid and and mostlyremote now but she was

46:17

really excited to move to New York and and and work remoteand then when she came back and visited she said "I need

46:24

to find a job that's in person you know 3 or 4 days a weekbecause I miss happy hour i miss seeing my co-workers." And

46:32

even though I could be productive at home there was uh youknow she just really enjoyed you know from a personal

46:38

perspective you know being around people one of the uh keypsychological need you know just

46:45

like we have basic human needs of food water you know thephysical needs um shelter all the

46:53

things like we the psychological one and one one of thethree major ones is is relational and so how do I how do who do

47:02

I have in my life who actually know what's going on andoftent times seeing

47:08

someone touching someone that's a different level than on ascreen and so

47:13

again it's a it's a major it's a major uh challenge fororganizations to

47:21

maintain that because then even virtual how many times doyou do a virtual call and people have their camera off but

47:26

they have their mic on okay where you can see the driftingeven further and further away from human connection you

47:33

know and so I think it if I was an organization that thatthere was that um

47:41

remote option still I would I would probably have some veryclear guidelines

47:46

as to what that entails um just to try to promote andpreserve relational connection with people so they don't get

47:52

isolated what is one piece of practical advice you couldleave with our audience

47:59

where are you you know when you're thinking about whatyou're going through the

48:04

season of your role the season of the organization it's itis really easy to

48:12

go into and stay in that survival mode kind of space andwhen we're in that

48:19

space we're not thriving you know it's good for the shortterm but if you feel the same that you

48:25

felt for the last two years that's that's doing a toll onyou in a lot of

48:31

ways that you may not even notice anymore it may be sonormalized that you don't

48:39

you just adapted to only getting four and a half hours ofsleep and you you

48:45

you get used to being that way you know and so I would saymake it a priority to take inventory

48:53

of of how are you doing you know where are you at currentlyand how long you've been there and then you've got to find

49:00

some people to talk to and it could be co-orker i'm notsaying it's got to be a therapist but find somebody to process

49:06

through that stress with because there's got to be somehealthier ways just for

49:11

your longevity and well-being um and that's going to betterimpact you and family friends everyone involved with

49:17

you thank you and before we close out I want to go back toyour 80% rule we were

49:23

originally scheduled to record this a couple weeks ago umand then my son Wall-E had to go to the hospital he had

49:30

dizziness and it got really crazy and uh I wanted to thankyou because I was

49:37

researching you and I was go studying the 80% rule and allthese negative negative thoughts you know you

49:42

immediately take things you could immediately take things tothe worst case scenario which in this case could

49:47

have been spinal menitis or it could have been a stroke butscary stuff and

49:53

and you and I were texting back and forth a little bit but Iforced myself to get out of that and not think about

49:58

the worst case scenario so that to me is a real worldexample of of how this work

50:04

that you do helps and by the way Wall-E is perfectly fineand um yeah it was

50:11

just something you know tied to the flu so it just that's areal world example right there of not letting your mind

50:17

wander to the worst case scenario and I don't know if Iwould have handled it as well very tough situation without your

50:23

help so I want to thank you for that and kind of want torecap our conversation and we talked about a lot of stuff like

50:29

you said you know we talked about why our brains are wiredfor negativity um

50:34

again your 80% role uh we talked about the differentcategories of fear and how

50:39

leaders can look at controllable things for them to helptheir team so Derek

50:46

you've been great and before um I ask you where people cancontact you with as

50:52

far as how you work with people do you on a one-on-one basisdo you do it virtually as well or only with people in

50:57

Kentucky no all over the place so uh you know I go intoorganizations ac across

51:04

the country and um ongoingly there is a lot of virtualfollowup but I love to

51:10

kind of that human component um if it works out to to kindof show up and be able to engage with people face to face

51:18

um usually at the start and then that you know a coupletimes throughout those um engagements uh definitely do that but

51:24

it's a hybrid so in in person and and it's not just toKentucky it's it's all over the country but what if I'm just

51:31

somebody who I've heard this conversation today and I'm likeyou know I really like this guy's approach you

51:36

know as a if I just need if I want to hire a somebody inyour position to have

51:41

somebody to speak to to get better at you know overcomingthis limiting beliefs I have for myself is that the

51:48

kind of customer you're working looking for yeah so there'sindividuals you know there there's organizational teams that

51:55

I work with but then also one off a banker in the Midwestyou know who's just going through some stuff personally

52:01

professionally they want to they want to you know I'm a I'man executive coach but then also like I said licensed

52:08

therapist in Kentucky Florida and so um yeah it's it's it'sacross the spectrum

52:14

there's there's a lot of individuals that I work with andoften times what what happens with that is the organization starts to see thechange in

52:20

that leader and then more people get involved that's greatand so where should our uh audience connect with you

52:27

at i'm very active on LinkedIn and so you can find me therejust Derek Sloan

52:32

um and then the podcast I have is called mental stillnessand talk about a lot of

52:38

organizational business leadership topics and also themental health component and then uh a

52:45

brbridgeleership uh.com is is where you can get access toall the things I mentioned as well so listeners do me a

52:52

favor if you haven't already rate and review um Learn It onyour favorite platform the Learn It All podcast on

52:59

your favorite platform and also if you or somebody you knowis struggling with

53:04

mental well-being uh or deal with a lot of fear and anxietysend them this episode but I think there's there's

53:10

several nuggets in here that they can learn for themselvesand for their teams

53:16

so please do that and until next time everybody please staycurious keep learning and have a great day take care

53:24

when the market shifted in 2022 we immediately had to startmonetizing because now the market's giving us this feedback we need revenue andnow I was

53:30

very fortunate to have oh I've already have three ramped upsales people on my team the summons

Be a Guest on The Learn-It-All Podcast

Share:

Share on FacebookShare on XShare via email

Interested?

Talk to an expert

Other episodes

The Swirl logo™ is a trademark of AXELOS Limited, used under permission of AXELOS Limited.
All rights reserved. © 2024 LEARN IT!