164: The New Approach to Mentorship That'll Change Your Life | Deborah Heiser

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who do you turn to when you can't express your vulnerabilitySomebody that you trust and that you can be vulnerable

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around And so that's how we automatically engage in lateralmentorship all the time We're calling

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upon people that we know who can help us Mentorship isn't abox check It's also

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not a corporate initiative just to roll out It's a deeplyhuman exchange one that only works when it's honest

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unforced and rooted in trust Welcome to the Learn It AllPodcast the show for today's leaders who want to get ahead

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and stay ahead because we believe great leaders aren't bornor made they are always in the making I'm your host Damon

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Ley and I'm joined today with my buddy and cohort DarrenBridget and we're from Learn It a live learning platform that

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has helped upskill over 2 million people over the past threedecades In this

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episode award-winning researcher author and founder of theMentor Project Dr Dr Deborah Heiser is going to challenge

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everything we think we know about what it means to be amentor We're going to be asking Dr Heiser to share her

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thoughts on the essential ingredients that makes mentorshipactually work why vulnerability is often the missing key

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to meaningful connection and how to reframe mentorshipespecially if you feel too busy or not qualified to be one

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You have a lot of great stories in your book The MentorshipEdge Can you start off and just share one of your favorites

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I I have so many I'm going to start with this one This one'sa really kind of typical one and it's um about somebody

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that I think is one of our most prolific mentors at thementor project His name is Fred Klene And Fred um is a guy who

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is a complete extrovert He'll talk to anyone And he was a hewas going around

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his usual business And this was back in the 80s He went outto get his film

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developed I don't know if anybody listening will rememberfilm developing stores that were in the malls Well he

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went to one of those and he happened upon a guy that herecognized he knew

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through his son They went to high school together at thesame time And he was thinking to himself "My goodness my son

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is like going to law school This guy's in the filmdeveloping um store What's

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going on here?" So he strikes up a conversation withthis kid And if let me

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just do a little backtracking on the kid that I'm talkingabout His name was Vinnie And Vinnie was a guy who got in

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trouble no matter what he did Like he just walked outsidehis front door and get in trouble He had the most cuts of

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anyone in his high school He you know went about and didjobs where he saw how

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far he could push the line of doing the right thing and thenwould dip his toe onto the other side So here's a guy

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who's had a lot of trouble going through school He's at thefilm developing store

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and Fred strikes up conversation with him every time he goesto the film developing store and this guy Vinnie

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starts to really trust Fred And Fred sees something in thisguy that is

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really making him drawn to him So one day he says to Vinnie"What the heck are

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you doing working in this film developing store you know whyare you

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here And the guy was like well I really want to be aphotographer And so Fred was like well

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then why aren't you out doing that If I come back here in 5years and you still

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working here you're going to be a loser And that was likewhat he told this guy And that was the aha moment for Vinnie

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Vinnie went out and he became an actual real photographerfor the NFL He was

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down on the on the line He actually followed his passion andhis dream He needed someone to say "Go do it." And he

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came back and he actually contacted Fred through his son andsaid "Hey I made it

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I did it." And to this day I was able to contact Vinniebecause they're still in

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touch Vinnie's written books He's a successful entrepreneurHe's long past

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being a photographer but his life was changed based onsomeone that he met at

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a place that he was his work He never knew that he was amentor at the time And Fred never thought of him as a

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mentee at a time at the time but these two interactedThey're still in touch

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like 45 years later And you know the life of Vinnie wasseriously changed

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because of Fred and and it gives Fred such psychic gratitudeas Fred says to

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uh know that he made that impact in his life You turn commonunderstanding of mentorship on its head and the way that

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we typically think about mentorship There's really a lot ofwork that all of us can do to understand that in a more productive deep way Solet's just start

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with how do you define mentorship Well I come from apsychologist perspective of

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this and research So we hit a stage I I study aging and wehit a stage in

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midlife called generativity and it's where we're literallybuilt to want to give back It's actually a life stage

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It's not like some madeup thing and it's been researched Itwas um posited by

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Eric Ericson and it's where you care for someone withoutexpecting anything in return And we're all aware of this If

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anyone has had children you know when the baby cries youdon't go "Oh you better you know pay me back later for

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this and I'm rocking you to sleep tonight." You knowthis is something that we're all sort of built to do But

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in midlife we're hitting a stage where we want to say"Okay all those boxes I

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checked do they matter Do I have a footprint in the world DoI matter?" And it's really a point where some people

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say "This is the midlife crisis." Really it's astage of generativity though So

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when we look at mentorship it has to come that somebodywants to give something of themsel to

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somebody else So in the case of Fred he wanted to give hisadvice to Vinnie you

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know to say "Here's some practical stuff that you cando I believe in you you know that sort of a thing." And Vinnie

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had to want that from Fred And he did The next thing is ithas to be something

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that is intrinsically motivated And that means that if Iwere to say to you "Hey

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Darren hey Damon would you like to go volunteer your time ata soup kitchen," you might say "Yeah I'd really like that

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It makes me feel really good to do that." If you wereon your way and I said "Hey before you get there just turn

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left and go volunteer your time at Starbucks." That's awhole different feeling You expect something exttrinsic

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like pay from Starbucks And it makes you feel icky if you'rethe one not getting paid there doing the same as everything

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everybody else So that same act feels different and we alsoneed a meaningful

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connection Now Fred knew Vinnie from the film developingstore It wasn't like

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they hung out on the weekends and things like that but theyboth felt meaningfully connected They're still

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connected today Um so we need that If you're meeting withsomebody and you're going "Oh I've got to meet with my

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mentor today." That's not really great Um and we alsoneed to trust the person

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So that happens all the time where this component is leftout where if I'm an entrepreneur and I say "Oh I don't want

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to tell Damon about you know this area of expertise I hadcuz have because he's going to run away with that information

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and go start his own company." Or I might say um Idon't want to tell Darren

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what I don't know because I feel vulnerable He's couplelevels above me

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And you know what Yeah He might not give me a raise He mighthe might even say

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"Oof I now have a whole new outlook on thisperson." And finally we need a goal

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So what we know in mentorship is a lot of times it lookslike mentorship Just like if I made brownies and I left the

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sugar out it's going to look like it but it's not going totaste like it Mentorship if you leave out the trust

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component you leave out the intrinsic motivation it's goingto look like it

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but it won't work And that's what we see a lot of times incompanies and organizations is that they're leaving

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out one of the components that really is a key formentorship to actually work

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the way it should to get back to how you made this journeyYou started in a

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totally different field You were actually looking at um kindof psychology and aging and frailty and you

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have a cool story about making that that turn I was lookingat it the way that we all think about it which is an inverted

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V We have a steep steady incline while we're young This isour physical

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trajectory and then we have a slow steady decline as we ageLike I didn't need these glasses when I was younger I

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always tell my students I can you know you can outrun meHowever what we're not

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thinking of is that what we also have an emotionaltrajectory That first one I

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talked about is super scary The second one though is it ouremotional trajectory and it goes up and doesn't go

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down So I can not run as fast as my students but I'm happierSo that's what

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I tell them all the time And that's the that's really howthat trajectory works I was a I studied depression That was

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one of the areas that I was really looking at and studyingquite a bit So most people say "Well what about people

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who get depressed when they get older?" Yeah they dobut they're the outliers We should not expect to be

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depressed You know we should not expect to have aAlzheimer's disease We should

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not expect those Those are out there Can it happen Yes Butwe shouldn't expect it

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So and can you get depressed and then get better Yes you canBut the

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expectation that people had was that everyone should bedepressed And that

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was what got me because I said I don't want people to thinkthat I want them to expect to be happy which is the

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trajectory that we do follow And that was where everybodywas sort of challenging the thought that no we

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should be depressed we should be frail we should haveAlzheimer's we should be afraid of our future So sorry that was a

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long answer to that and I and I appreciated that you saidthat and of course all that led to generativity

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which uh seems like like one of the cornerstones for youwhen it comes to mentorship Can you explain what

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generativity is and how is it different from generosity andand other ways that we might think about it So generativity

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is generating something from you So we are all like walkinglibraries

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So you know if I don't get my information out it's likeburning down a library I have an expertise in whatever

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I have You do You do it It's how we all are And so we getcompelled to want to

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generate that expertise out and put it into the world intosomebody else You're doing that through your podcast We do

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that in all sorts of ways You're doing a modern for form ofmentorship with that So that is generativity Think of

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generating It lives on outside of me Now generosity is I goto an ice cream shop

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and I say "Ooh I'd like a scoop of ice creamplease." And they give me an extra scoop That's generous But then I eat it

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and it's gone And that's that's the difference between thatNow reciprocity is I'll scratch my back you or I'll

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scratch your back you scratch my back There's somethingthere that is if I do this I'm expecting something in return

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from you that is going to match that And so if we think ofgenerosity as being

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generative it stops there It doesn't live on And we want tobe generative We

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want to make sure that we are generating a piece of us thatwill live on and you and the next person and the next person

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If I'm somebody listening and I'm thinking to myself I'm notthat generative right now I I you know and I

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need to get better at it What advice would you have for themI'd say you probably are generative and you don't

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know it Um because most of us are and I'll give you a coupleof examples of that Um I was in graduate school and

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again this was the olden days Cell phones were big and bulkyand they cost like $10 if you made a call on them I

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get a call on my cell phone and I know that this is a bigdeal because nobody called anybody because they knew it was

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a lot of money I take the phone call and my co and my myclassmate said "Hey I'm

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on my externship and I have a big project to do and Iremember you know

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Kappa statistics Can you teach me Kappa statistics right nowcuz I'm going to

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have to give this project later and you know these are a bigdeal you know when you're in graduate school." So I walked

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her through it and I taught her kappas and she did great Offshe went and she

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went on and on Have you ever helped anybody when they askedfor help like that you probably have That's generative

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What I taught her didn't go away She didn't go write it downand it was gone And she's done that for me So we do this

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sort of thing If a neighbor calls and say they say "Ohmy gosh I need help with something or other You know can you

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teach it to me Can you show me how you're doing it You'rebeing generative right now with the podcast." So we do

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these things all the time in our everyday life but we don'teven give ourselves credit for it Um another thing

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that's generative that people do and they don't realize isreligion tradition

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values culture Religion didn't pop out of a box You knowit's been something

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that for centuries has had similarities that get passed downIt doesn't matter which one it is And the traditions every

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time you go to a holiday dinner you it's not like somebody'slike "Oh we're going to do this theme It's going to be a

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whole different scenario." It's those familiartraditions that you then pass on that continue something and so you're

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doing it You're being generative all the time Sharingknowledge and wisdom along

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with other things like trust and intrinsic motivation whichI think gets

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us into what you think about mentorship in a workplacesetting what everybody

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gets wrong Can you talk about that a little bit A lot ofpeople really don't like it when I say that you

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know mentorship in the workplace is often I think of it as aburden almost

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when it's set up where a person is supposed to be inspiringand there's that if they they have to show that they

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are mentoring um that just becomes another part of the joband that to me

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feels like a burden and I'll explain a little bit about whatI mean I teach a university and I tell the students I am

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not your mentor I am your adviser right now I get paid towork with you Now when I do that I want the best for you I want

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you to do really really well All of those components thatwould go into mentoring I'm going to be doing that but

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I'm paid to do this as an adviser to you If I don't do itI'm a bad adviser It's

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not that I'm not a mentor I'm a bad adviser I'm a bad athelping you So when we're in the workplace and we're saying

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we're now going to put another word on that and call itmentorship but you're really at Starbucks instead of at the

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soup kitchen it feels like an ick It feels like I've got onemore box I've got a check at work and I'm supposed to

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be like nice and feel altruistic about it The the logic andthe emotion don't go together So a lot of places can

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engage in really great mentorship that's more organic Um andplaces do this all

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the time automatically People just don't capitalize on it Soif you're in a health care setting a doctor can't go to

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another doctor and be like "Hey I'm getting ready to dosurgery I have no idea what I'm doing." Like that's not going to go wellBut they can do a

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curbside consult and say "Hey can I pick your brain Ihave this thing coming up and I just want to make sure I like how

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did you handle that?" And that's mentorship You'regetting that mentorship That is a grand rounds That

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is the lunch where people are brought together and theybrown bag it and they

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this happened actually in the federal courts in Iowa wherethe federal judges

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set up informal lunches so that you know you can't be likeoh I have a case coming up no clue how to do that you

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know this is another one of those that you're not going togo tell people but you will say hey Jim you had the case

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like this can you tell me how that ran now that's a wholedifferent feel to people than it is If somebody says you

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are now Jim's mentee and you are going to now be mentored byhim I still may

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feel like I don't trust telling Jim or maybe I don't evenlike Jim Maybe Jim's a you know somebody that I I don't feel

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meaningfully connected with So when we impose some of thosethings on people it

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backfires in some ways or it waters it down and it doesn'tmake it so that it's really working I would just name it

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something else We're going to have workplace advisory We'regoing to have some workplace coaching We're going to

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have something else Um because when a person is labelingsomething as

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mentorship it stops a person from going and actually gettingmentorship because they think they're already engaging in

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it Interesting So you're saying that if it feels like it'simposed instead of organic that it actually backfires and

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can be detrimental Can you give an example of how does itmake it detrimental You know I'm going to tell you a case that somebody almostdied

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Okay so imagine it's 2003 and you are watching the Colombia

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space shuttle hurtling back to Earth and it disintegrates onimpact with Earth's

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atmosphere Now that was to the horror of everyone watchingCouple years later

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2005 they send up another mission STS 114 and imagine you'rethe astronaut and

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you're like "Woohoo This is great I've I'm in spacefinally Yay This is great." And then you get a call from mission

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control and mission control is like "Hey you might havethat same problem that the other that the other mission had."

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And imagine yourself being that astronaut Well CharlieKamarda was that astronaut who got that call Now the

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people that he was working with were supposed to be hismentors You know they were supposed to be guiding him through

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everything He didn't trust him He was like "They don'tknow what's going on They can't tell me what's really

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happening." So what he did was he got out his littleblack book I did not know they do this in space but he had this

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little black book of contacts And he contacted a lateralmentor a person that he considered a trusted um colleague who

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knew exactly this kind of mission and what was happening Andhe said "Listen

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um do I have to call my daughter and say I'm not cominghome?" You know he was a single dad taking care of his daughter

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And um he said "Do I have to do that or is there a wayto get home safely?" And

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the guy worked with him and he mentored him through and said"Here's what I think." Cuz you know he has to teach him

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while he's there and incorporate his expertise into CharlieHe can't go there and do it for him So he said "You got to

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do a spacew walk and fix this teeny tiny tile that's outsidewhich was what caused the demise

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of the previous shuttle." So Charlie calls missioncontrol and says "Hey um

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we're going to do a spacew walk." And they did it andthey came home safely Now that is where the breakdown happened

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He didn't trust that person You know those people he wasassigned to work with them He didn't trust them He didn't

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feel that there was any you know intrinsic motivation comingfrom that This was this was work And he felt like

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uh-oh I think they put me in a bad spot here And that's whenhe swapped it out for somebody who he did trust and who

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was intrinsically motivated to help him He his name isn'teven mentioned his he

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was just somebody that he who wanted to help because hecared about him If it's imposed to you that I am supposed to

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divulge all of my secrets to you It's like a therapistImagine going to a therapist that you don't like or trust

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You think that that person's going to go tell your story toeverybody Would you really tell them You know even they can

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have that title but is that really going to work You know sothis is the kind of

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but if you have a mentorship program like a lateralmentorship sort of with somebody that you trust and it's

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intrinsic and you can go back and forth that that's the kindof thing that you're talking about building Yeah

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absolutely You can have a formal mentoring program You justhave to make sure that the people want to be there

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they want to be doing it that they want to um be engaged init So for example with the mentor project we're a

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formalized mentoring organization but we'll stick we'll havekids and I say

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that loosely They're all the way through graduate schoolstudents who will meet with a mentor and we'll say I want to

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put you with five not just the one you think you want And wedon't we say it's

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not a failed it's not a failed relationship if you say thisisn't working for me the mentor or the mentee

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That's not a failure It's just not mentorship So then theycan find their person um in both directions And that's

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really what we need because when we have a onetoone matchingsystem we aren't guaranteed You could

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have a whole lot of people come in front of you that arepotential friends but are you friends with everybody who

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crosses your path No You know you're you know who you wantto be friends with Um

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you don't need a handbook on that And if somebody said"Now you're going to be friends with somebody that you just met

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that you don't really care that much about," you'renever going to be really close Sticking with the mentorship

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project what I really like is you know we talk about wellpeople aren't going

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to want to help and you're never going to be able to getpeople to do things for free but you've really proved that

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otherwise I think it's incredible Let's talk a little bitabout who are where where are some of these people coming

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from who are the mentors and and all the work and help thatthey're doing because I think it's incredible You know it it

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surprised me I will tell you that I thought to myself isthis generativity thing real Because you know it has been

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studied in in small little bits and in different ways butthis was going to be

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like an anthropological expedition to look at this So whenwe started with just a few people it was Bill Chzwick

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who said "I'm going to be leaving Bell Labs." He'sone of the fathers of the network firewall And he said "I'm

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retiring and I'm going to move to a farm and I'm not goingto have any kids around to mentor and I can't go to a

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park and say "Hey kid do you want to mentor It's notgoing to work out well." So we I was like "Oo let's see if we can

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just get you in with kids." And so a few of us gottogether just thinking this would be fun There was no real big

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anything there And Bill went out to schools and he washaving a blast A couple of other really cool people went

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out to some schools and they were having fun And thensomebody said to me "You do

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know that no one else is ever going to do this You know youare essentially a band of 10 weirdos out there doing

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this." And I was like "That's okay We're justgoing to do it It's working You

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know everybody's happy." and we're having a good timeAnd then within 6 months we went to 60 mentors 80 and 100

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This was not me knocking on doors saying "Hey would youlike to mentor?" This was people saying "I need to do this." And

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we still have people all the time at saying "I'd liketo mentor." And these are people that I was told wouldn't want

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to do it because they're the top 1% Charlie the astronaut Wehave a very well-known artist We have a seventime

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Nobel Peace Prize nominee We have astrophysicists who youwould see on

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television on PBS and NOVA and all of that We have all ofthese really recognizable individuals who have said I

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want to give back and I need to And the weird thing is thatum they always say

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we said oh we'll start it slow you know that maybe theydon't want to give too much of their time 2 hours a month No

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they they they say we want more and more and more And so itreally was able to

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prove that when we look at mentorship from the perspectiveof the mentor not

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the elusive faceless person that we're saying go find amentor so I can grab my way up the ladder If we say let's flip

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it and look at it from the mentor perspective which is whatthe mentor project is Here are all these people

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with information to give Who wants it Now you have a muchmore meaningful potential matching because somebody's

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saying I like what that person does That's my area Oohthat's interesting Or I've never heard of that I'd like to

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meet with that person So it changes it shifts it from beingburdensome to the

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mentor and more of a journey that the mentee gets to saythis is the one I want to be on And we served last year

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and we had to take a little hiatus as we changed ourplatform We gave out more than $3 million of mentorship hours to

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students in five countries based on 100% volunteer work fromthese amazing

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mentors So it's really defining mentorship uh generativityum in a

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modern way by them doing that What is the future hold whenit comes to mentorship Unbelievably amazing So like

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I've said a couple of times now you guys are modern mentorsWe we were on Skype

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in 2019 and that was like you met with people in person orwhen you did Skype

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it was like oo I'm going to be doing Skype today like clearthe house you know here we go and it was a big deal

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but people get on now all the time and they're able toconnect with people everywhere and it's a it's a really

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great platform for that We have AI that's um allowing us tohave bots that

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people can um give mentorship through through that platformSo I know that like the Holocaust Museum has you know

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people who surv who were survivors who tell their storyThey're a long gone but

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their story lives on through that bot that looks like a realperson speaking to them We're seeing more of those

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Marshall Goldsmith who's a coach He has a Marshall bot thatis giving out coaching mentorship to um coaches You

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you know when we see a person who's doing um podcasting thatis a way of

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getting out information that we did not have that abilityThis is radio didn't have that same ability to reach people

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globally because it was a community-based thing The radiowaves don't go that far But now we're seeing

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that people are picking up on ideas and new ways of thinkingaround the world that were just five years ago kept to a

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local community and that's where I think that I don't evenknow what the new tech is going to be but I'm very excited

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because I think it's going to really propel us with regardto mentorship Speaking of the lateral would you

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because I know that that's kind of that interesting area foryou Would you tell the Steve uh the Steve story Imagine

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you're at work and this has happened to me before This hashappened to a lot of people You're at work and your boss

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comes to you and says "I have an impossible task foryou and it has to be done in an impossibly short amount of

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time." So this guy Steve says to his boss "Sure Igot it No problem." He didn't but he wasn't going to tell his

27:41

boss that cuz he didn't want to get fired He was sure he'dget fired This was a startup and he knew that the

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company's future was hinging on this So um his boss comes ina couple of days

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later and he says "Hey Steve how's it going?" AndSteve says "Don't worry I got it." Well he didn't So he called his

27:57

friend Steve on the phone and he said "Steve I know youknow a different kind of engineering than I know Can you walk

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me through this?" And Steve said "You know whatI'll meet you after work When I get done with work I'll come and I'll

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see what's going on." He comes late that night andthey're working together and it's like Rumple

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Stiltskin entered the room You know they are turning wheatinto gold So the next day the boss comes back and goes "Steve

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this looks great You uh seem to be getting this work doneHow's it going Were you going to get it done on time?"

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And Steve's like "I told you I had it I totally haveit." And he's like "Steve can you come back?" Steve comes back

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that night Night after night Steve's coming back and they'reworking until the wee hours No one knows Steve's

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friend Steve is coming at night It's happening after hoursAnd then Steve leaves Steve goes home Steve comes back

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to work Anyway they finish it a week early This impossibletask with an

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impossibly short deadline gets finished a week before itsdue date And the boss

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says "Oh my gosh you saved the company." Well thatcompany was Atari The boss was

29:04

Alhorn who's known as the grandfather of video games Theproject that was being

29:09

worked on was Breakout the first video game for Atari Andthe two Steves Steve

29:14

Jobs held the job and Steve Waznjak was his friend who wasthe lateral mentor

29:20

Now it should people say to their boss I don't know what I'mdoing I don't know

29:25

if that's the moral of the story here All I'm saying is Iknow so many people who've done that They don't feel like

29:31

they can express their vulnerability And who do you turn towhen you can't express your vulnerability Somebody that

29:38

you trust and that you can be vulnerable around And sothat's how we automatically engage in lateral

29:44

mentorship all the time We're calling upon people that weknow who can help us

29:50

And that story was funny because when Alhorn was telling itto me he was like "Man you know Steve Jobs totally

29:56

exploited Steve Waznjak." And I was like "Come onhaven't you ever helped a friend?" You know and so the story that

30:02

got out there about that was the exploitation of SteveWaznjak because nobody knew that he was helping him But

30:10

that's really how we operate when we're generative We're alittle walking library And when somebody that we care

30:16

about says "I need your help." We say "Let meopen up the door to the library." And we give it to them We

30:22

don't expect something in return Deborah so many greatstories And I love how you tie it back to your work as well And

30:28

we're kind of coming up here on time But if I'm a listenerout here and I want to

30:34

be a mentor to more individuals what advice would you havefor me to go out

30:40

and seek and find uh mentees So I would first say youprobably have them around

30:46

you Look to your left and look to your right Most of us havepeople around us just like you know with Fred who went

30:51

into the film developing store You know they are everywhereIt's just that most

30:57

of us look past people We don't really look and say is theresome way I can be

31:03

of help to them or is there some way they can be of help tome And not in a way like oh I'm looking for reciprocity

31:10

here but looking a little bit more deeply into that personAnd as we form those

31:15

rolodexes that person may be the person that saves your lifein the future That person may be someone that you saved

31:21

their life or their career or whatever it might be So it'sreally looking at

31:27

people all around us as a potential you know meaningfulconnection for us Amazing Really interesting perspective

31:34

on what mentorship really means in a big picture way Ifyou're interested everybody should go read the book

31:40

because there's a lot of more great stories and more refinedways to understand it including things we get into like the legacy tree whichis

31:46

fascinating Um Deborah I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna check

31:52

my impulse to give advice build a little more trust as I goout and do it I love that You know I um I think that I'm so

31:59

glad you brought that up because I didn't mention that and Ididn't I don't even think I touched on that in the book You know don't just runout and give

32:05

advice We have to know that person wants to receive it Andthat's the generativity part you know that you have

32:11

to have the person wants to generate but you really have tomake sure that person is the one that wants to receive it cuz

32:17

nobody really like you said wants to have somebody come overand just tell them something Um it feels pushy or

32:24

doesn't feel you know really caring It feels more likecriticism If our

32:29

listeners want to learn more about your work what's the bestway to connect with you at Sure Go to the mentor project you

32:35

know and especially if you know of a student who needs amentor It's free It costs nothing Um and you get access to

32:43

all these you know top 1% leaders in their fields Click thebutton become a mentee and fill out the form and off you

32:50

go But if you want to learn more about me you can check meout there I write for Psychology Today I have a website

32:56

deborraheiser.com You can find me on LinkedIn and you canreach me through wherever you buy books you know because

33:03

you can find me through the mentorship edge as well Thankyou So everybody you should pick up Deborah's book but I also

33:09

want you to do me a favor Think about somebody who you thinkcould either be a great mentor or maybe knows people who

33:16

could benefit from this conversation and maybe even has akid who's uh uh could be a potential mentee maybe somebody in

33:23

school and take this u conversation we had and send it tothem And so thank you

33:29

so much Deborah And until next time everybody stay curiouskeep learning and have a great day Very seldom do we

33:36

believe that if I leave a comment on your video that yourvideo is going to comment back And yet when I read

33:42

something from you and I comment I do

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